Author Topic: noribogaine?  (Read 2620 times)

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Offline vicka

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noribogaine?
« on: April 18, 2011, 10:30:25 AM »
it appears that dr mash still holds a patent in the usa on noribogaine.  but is anyone anywhere actually using it in treatment as such?  or does everyone still administer ibogaine and expect the body to do that part of the processing?

thanks for any info :)

--vicka

Offline Calaquendi

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Re: noribogaine?
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2011, 08:42:34 PM »
Good question, vicka - I do not know...to my uncertain knowledge 'they' do not use noribogaine. If I am not mistaken, 'they' are fiddling around with these analogues - the most 'promising' of which seems to be 18 MC (18, Methoxycoronaridine) Glick and his associates are pioneering this research, and I know little of it save the name and a few weak articles I have found online. I think (think, mind you) that these compounds are being explored for their efficacy in addiction interruption, as a 'replacement' for the naturally occurring ibogamines.

See - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18-Methoxycoronaridine

This can be looked at in two ways: what 'they' say is that they are looking for analogues to substitute the ibogaine - a compound which will have all the healing elements of the ibogamines without the psychedelic or oneirogenic effects, and of course, they are touting 'safety' as a key motivator - suggesting by contrast that these new synthetics will be safer, more manageable for the patient, etc...this to me ignores the most powerful aspects of the ibogoids in the first place - the psychological catharsis brought on by its unique psychotropic effects. They will not succeed in perfecting that which already IS.

The other way to look at, of which I am partial, is the cynical route: you can patent all these synthetics and if they can formulate even ONE that approaches the anti addictive properties of ibogaine, sans the 'disturbing psychological elements' - then we may well see something on the market.

For now though, we are safe - unless I have missed updated data, human trails are not yet underway, at least not in any significant fashion.

These psychological effects that scientists are trying to eliminate or at least mitigate are the very tool and prime instrument in these processes - but if you can de-fang something like this, there will be a much broader market and Big Pharma will have a new cash cow to sell to all their Suboxone junkies.

Forgive the atmosphere of abrasion, I get piffed when I think of all the REAL work that is so often overlooked for reasons of , IMHO, poor ethics disguised as medicine...

The Medicine is HERE, Now.

As for noribogaine, I think the full spectrum or total-alkaloid extracts contain more of this by weight than isolated ibogaine hcl, nor ibogaine being one of the alks already present in the profile - thus it need not be converted by the liver as does ibogaine. Couple the presence of both ibogaine AND nor ibogaine in the TA and it is a more powerful elixir with the additional properties.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 08:47:04 PM by Calaquendi »
" I am you and what I see is me..."

Offline vicka

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Re: noribogaine?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2011, 06:23:07 AM »
thanks calaquendi :) 

i am of several minds about the potential usefulness of separating the hallucinogenic experience from the lack-of-withdrawal experience, presuming they *can* be biologically separated (dr mash's thesis, and apparently some other folks'; i am not convinced either way yet i guess).

first i guess i think some folks should probably avoid hallucinogens in general.  these include people with major psychoses, such as schizophrenia, which tend to be aggravated by hallucinogens; also those prone to lingering perceptual distress (hppd, a rather bizarre but certainly attested phenomenon, of lab interest to one of my colleagues).  otoh, it would still be nice if they could avoid the withdrawal symptoms if they were trying to break addictions.

second, there's the population that isn't addicted to anything, but for whom other properties of ibogaine might be of therapeutic use.  me, for instance -- i have ptsd, and i notice when i short myself on my meds b/c my symptoms get worse, but i cannot claim anything like withdrawal.  (i can't abide either opiates or nicotine in the first place....)  i do believe that different psychoactives have different characters -- my usual regimen, for instance, has maintenance value but not healing properties, alas; might ibogaine be a good drug for my ptsd?  and what would be the effect on my life and liver of having noribogaine hanging around for a month or so?  is it harmless?  i haven't the faintest, and i don't think anybody else has either; since ibogaine has mostly been used as an interruptor for things that tend to kill one more quickly, it's maybe a less interesting question for treating heroin addiction than for treating ptsd.

i guess i am not a believer in any one The Medicine.  i *approve* of medicine, but i approve even more of a broad, well-understood pharmacopeia.

yrs in mild heresy? :)
--vicka

Offline mo

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Re: noribogaine?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2011, 07:33:48 AM »
no heresy perceived from my part. i have my experience and  anecdotal evidence of how eboga works. i don't have either for noribogaine - so, i don't know.

however, with the experience i had with hallucinogenic drugs i came to a personal understanding, which might not be more than just my opinion, that the hallucinogenic part of the experience is an inseparable part of my human experience.

i went through a mild (as perceived from the outside) but profound psychosis (altered my mood of life for ever)  taking hallucinogenic drugs.

i would say that they are unhinging the ego. they are blowing life into parts of the brain which were wired though old childhood / or later fundamental programming - in my case traumatic. hallucinogenic drugs open up those parts, loosen them, disclose them. and if bad things are in there then in the experience the gates to the inner hell are opened.

and if the healing is not complete, if it merely shakes the programming it can leave you with those bad feelings filling you up, defining your life mood. that is how i experienced hallucinogens. this is how i explain my psychosis.  i was opened up, but not cleaned out. seemingly in a worse position. but actually - on the right track!

i came to understand that there is a bug in the brain in how it deals with traumatic programming: it shuts it down / locks them in. but those parts are always there - silently coloring the experience - the life mood.

i would say: they are the cage we have to live in - we do not choose them. if you are lucky and your early childhood experience was positive, loving, empowering - then all is good. if not - all is not so good. and things can be bad too - of course they can be bad. but always it is a cage - we did not make it ourselves, we did not choose it - i would call this our ego.

it seems to me that we have anecdotal evidence that eboga can actually resolve these programmings, resolve the ego - i awe at how profound this is - in my humble opinion.

and i experienced it's healing touch. hell broke open but after a fight i was temporarily healed. a different person - a different live mood. eventually, after a view months i fell back. the old ways got hold of me again. it's the hardest thing.

but for a while it did it - it shook them off me. they did come back eventually. but for a while i was free! i think this is profound. i think these forums are important. i think eboga is important.

it seems to me we found the ultimate medicine. the one that has the potential to really set us free.

given my experience i tend to the opinion that eboga, in large enough doses, could unhinge and heal serious mental illnesses. i saw people inquiring here about eboga for the treatment of mental illnesses, but i am not sure if anyone went ahead and what the outcomes were..

i would not like anyone to get hurt, and really i don't know if it would be a healing experience, or how difficult it would be.

as others have said: if you don't have the gut feeling that this is for you, you might not want to take it, though you still can..

either way - prepare well, have people around that support you. do the medical checkups... take care of yourself!
in a universe like ours, to beings like us, the idea of a god dying can be quite liberating

Offline polytrip

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Re: noribogaine?
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2011, 01:45:08 PM »
Hmm, would there be a way to isolate noribogaine from iboga rootbark? Noribogaine would be a high quality hallucinogenic drug on it's own.

Offline vicka

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Re: noribogaine?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2011, 07:33:15 PM »
@polytrip why do you think noribogaine would be a trip drug?  i had the impression it tended to linger in the liver; do you know it to be psychoactive by itself?

@mo ....today was kinda retraumatizing for me.  i am wondering if ibogaine is relevant to any possible healing process for my particular crazy (and the things that aggravate it) at all.  then again what i have is basically an anxiety disorder anyway, so maybe it's no wonder if i am much with the fear and short on the hope.

neurologically and/or narcissistically,

--vicka

Offline polytrip

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Re: noribogaine?
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2011, 03:25:43 PM »
I think noribpgaine is a trip-drug because when taking ibogaine, after the effects had worn off, i started to trip again 20 hours after initial iboga trip had begun and about 9 hours after it started to wear off. The visuals where completely different. It clearly must have been the effect of an iboga metabolite. I very much liked the effects.

Offline vicka

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Re: noribogaine?
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2011, 12:32:40 PM »
hmm.  is the second wind of visuals usual, ibogaine users?

is there a reason to think that it's caused by a metabolite, and not by some recirculatory process involving ibogaine not processed the first time?

i gather that the noribogaine hangs around for about a month, so i wish you a good month of the hallucinations....?  actually that totally does NOT sound standard issue :)

--vicka

Offline polytrip

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Re: noribogaine?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2011, 01:02:59 PM »
Maybe the amounts in wich it hangs around are the answer. If there is lot's of noribogaine, it is easy for whatever enzymes are involved to clean it up, so then you could have a huge load of noribogaine at one moment quickly diminished to an amount that stays in the body for a longer period of time...just speculating. I just assumed the after effects where from a metabolite because they where so completely different.

Offline vicka

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Re: noribogaine?
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2011, 03:13:45 AM »
it's an interesting question!  mash does not mention psychoactivity in noribogaine; then again i suppose she would have reason not to?  i shall have some careful reading to do...!

:)
--vicka

Offline Calaquendi

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Re: noribogaine?
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2011, 02:55:53 PM »
No heresy at all vicka! Great points on all fronts, and I stand corrected on the cynicism. Not too good of a tool for communication, cynicism, but I get worked up sometimes being partial to blowing sage in a bubbling pot of leaves - instead of waiting in line at a pharmacy. I really think there is room for all of it to work, I need sometimes to be reminded by reading such well thought and intelligent posts as have been made in this thread. Thanks to mo and polytrip too - a fine discussion.
" I am you and what I see is me..."