Author Topic: PTA vrs. TA (Purified Total Alkaloids vrs. Total Alkaloids)  (Read 6600 times)

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Iboga Panacea

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PTA vrs. TA (Purified Total Alkaloids vrs. Total Alkaloids)
« on: September 02, 2012, 05:31:51 PM »
I am wondering how much more effective PTA is vrs. TA.  Currently I have only had TA and I have to say I would like to have more exact method without converting to all Ibogaine.  I think what I am trying to say is I am not currently satisfied with the homemade TA and I would like something more refined. 

Also can someone explain how I convert the TA to PTA?  I've read some methods but to be honest I find it a bit confusing for me to see the exact way of doing it.  With serious addicts especially I find that as exact of a preparation as possible would be better.  Really when it comes to Iboga, more and more precision is a basic requirement with everything.  An exact science per say. 

Is there a natural way of doing it (converting TA to PTA) without using "chemicals".  Also does anyone know how much PTA does one get from a certain portion of homemade TA, say 5gr TA?  Can anyone explain the exact method of purification process to get a guarantee of at least 60% of Ibogaine? 

GD can you help me out?  I think your the guy for this question. 

Thanks!

Iboga Panacea

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Re: PTA vrs. TA (Purified Total Alkaloids vrs. Total Alkaloids)
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2012, 10:40:09 PM »
I could use some help here. 

Offline ShenNung

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Re: PTA vrs. TA (Purified Total Alkaloids vrs. Total Alkaloids)
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2012, 01:23:54 PM »
You mean without using acetone? If the acetone is clean it will leave no residue.
How did you make your TA without using ammonia?


Iboga Panacea

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Re: PTA vrs. TA (Purified Total Alkaloids vrs. Total Alkaloids)
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2012, 02:51:56 PM »
Well I must admit I'm quite inept in this department.  I first used 7% acidic vinegar in my extractions but wasn't satisfied w/the gummy final product.  Then I moved onto using organic grain alcohol which creates this beautiful crystalline powder.  But still this is not professional enough for me nor on par with Iboga World's TA.  So I'm only keen on creating this type of high caliber vroom vroom product of PTA and not necessarily hcl.  I'm confused by many previous theads on this because they dance back and forth between TA, PTA and hcl.  I think we need specific guidelines on making PTA and hcl seperately so as not to confuse. 

So I guess???? To make PTA all I need to do is soak my TA in acetone in the fridge overnight?  And then filter out again and evaporate?  And do i then need the ammonia or is that just for making hcl? Also wondering if I am doing something wrong by using alcohol instead of vinegar.  The alcohol TA is quite strong and works but I wanna make sure I'm not leaving out alkaloids in the process.

So many questions I apologize.  I have read and reread threads like this but I'm still confused...

http://eboka.info/index.php?topic=1055.0

Offline GratefulDad

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Re: PTA vrs. TA (Purified Total Alkaloids vrs. Total Alkaloids)
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2012, 06:07:09 PM »
So I guess???? To make PTA all I need to do is soak my TA in acetone in the fridge overnight?  And then filter out again and evaporate?  And do i then need the ammonia or is that just for making hcl? Also wondering if I am doing something wrong by using alcohol instead of vinegar.  The alcohol TA is quite strong and works but I wanna make sure I'm not leaving out alkaloids in the process.

So many questions I apologize.  I have read and reread threads like this but I'm still confused...

http://eboka.info/index.php?topic=1055.0

If you want to make a PTA, you can follow the instructions in the extraction thread up until you recover the crystals from the acetone.  At this point in the extraction, you have PTA, if you want HCl, you have to take it further.  Soaking your TA in acetone in the fridge overnight may not do what you want, because I am guessing you didn't follow the first part of the extraction I wrote. 

You have to follow each step the way it is written so at each step, the alkaloids are in the correct form to move on to the next step.  If you do an extraction a different way, you can still end up with something similar, but you will have to understand what you are doing.  If you don't understand what is actually happening chemically, you should just follow the extraction the way it is written.

If you extracted the alkaloids with alcohol, then you don't have them in the acetate form that you would if you used vinegar, and so you can't precipitate them from water by turning them to a freebase.  So, whatever you have, is not going to work the way it does in the extraction.  You can't just mix and match with a chemical process, unless you understand what is happening when you mix this with that.

I can figure out ways for you to make PTA depending on what exactly you want, and I can offer different methods I know of, that you can choose from.  The one I wrote already is the way Chris Jenks explains to make a TA and comes out with a purified mix of 3 iboga alkaloids, ibogaine being the main one. 

Bancopuma did a "dry" extraction of iboga bark with d-limonene, that came out pretty nice, and captured the majority of alkaloids from the plant, which may have been cruder but had more of the full alkaloid profile.  There are other ideas, like the soaking it with methanol, then precipitating the alkaloids with HCl, which is also reported to make a very strong and stable extract. 

If you need any help, or have a decision on which method you may want to try, I'll do my best to offer suggestions and explain the steps you should take to perform the extraction correctly.  Just let me know! ;)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 06:15:38 PM by GratefulDad »
GratefulDad

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Iboga Panacea

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Re: PTA vrs. TA (Purified Total Alkaloids vrs. Total Alkaloids)
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2012, 11:56:53 AM »
Thanks so much Grateful Dad, your input is an invaluable resource of treasure trove material.  Keeping this forum at the headstool of the grandfather's medicine pinnacle database, you live up to your name.

Forgive me though...

For now I just want to make PTA on par w/what Iboga World is making w/similar dosage.

So...

To accomplish this task am I hearing you correctly that I just do the good old standard vinegar tech followed with an acetone wash?

More quesions...

Before doing the acetone wash must the vinegar processed TA be in powder form?  Or is it ok as a "goop" or is it ok as a semi-liquid?

When doing the acetone wash is it ok to blend (as I like doing w/all extractions in my vita mix), and/or letting sit/shaking the jar for several days?

Then I evaporate, correct?

Will this form a desired fine crystalline powder?

Sorry so much of this is rehashed material and I can't thank you enough for your time and wise mind experiential knowledge set.

Blessings and Bwititude,
Kiap

« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 11:59:05 AM by Kambogahuasca Panacea »

Offline GratefulDad

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Re: PTA vrs. TA (Purified Total Alkaloids vrs. Total Alkaloids)
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2012, 01:28:23 PM »
Thanks so much Grateful Dad, your input is an invaluable resource of treasure trove material.  Keeping this forum at the headstool of the grandfather's medicine pinnacle database, you live up to your name.

Forgive me though...

For now I just want to make PTA on par w/what Iboga World is making w/similar dosage.

So...

To accomplish this task am I hearing you correctly that I just do the good old standard vinegar tech followed with an acetone wash?
 

No, that is incorrect.  Have you read the extraction I posted?  I posted the same extraction with step by ste instructions at least a few times in the same extraction thread.  You need to start at the beginning and follow the instructions until you precipitate the alkaloids from the acetone.  You aren't even including the part where you make the solution basic, so what you are suggesting will not work.

You basically do the vinegar extraction, then you take that solution and add ammonia to it.  This will make the alkaloids precipitate from the solution.  You then filter them out, rinse them well, and let them dry.  Then you dissolve this in a measured amount of acetone (see my extraction post for exact details).  Once you have it all dissolved, you filter out any solids, which would be any plan material you didn't get filtered out in the first steps.  Then you have alkaloid saturated acetone.  You then add a measured amount of hydrochloric acid in solution (aka muriatic acid), until the crystals start to precipitate.  You place this in the fridge over night, then filter them out in the morning.  Then you place it in front of a fan until the acetone evaporates from the crystals you filtered out.  This will leave you with PTA, a mix of 3 of the main iboga alkaloids with all the plant and non-alkaloidal material removed.

More quesions...

Before doing the acetone wash must the vinegar processed TA be in powder form?  Or is it ok as a "goop" or is it ok as a semi-liquid?

As I explained, you do the vinegar soak, or you can even use muriatic acid to acidify your water to do the soaks.  After combing all the solution from 3-4 soaks, you then add ammonia.  The alkaloids then drop off the acetate or hydrochloride and leave you with freebae iboga alkaloids, which are not water soluble, so they begin to crash out.  You want to filter this extract out, rinse it well with distilled water, then let it dry completely before dissolving it in acetone.  If it is moist, it will make the acetone wet and your crystals will not precipitate out when you turn them back into the salt form, because in the salt form they are water soluble.  This is the basis for any acid/base extraction.

When doing the acetone wash is it ok to blend (as I like doing w/all extractions in my vita mix), and/or letting sit/shaking the jar for several days?

Then I evaporate, correct?

Will this form a desired fine crystalline powder?

Sorry so much of this is rehashed material and I can't thank you enough for your time and wise mind experiential knowledge set.

Blessings and Bwititude,
Kiap



You want to dissolve the freebase extract in the acetone, because freebases are soluble in non-polar solvents.  You want to complete this step over night, because iboga alkaloids degrade very fast when in solution.  Leaving it in solution for days or longer will degrade your alkaloids, so don't wait, finish it.  Also, the alkaloids are not very stable in freebase form, so once you begin the extraction, you should complete it as quickly as possible, to reduce any possible degradation. 

You will filter the precipitate of the hydrochloride salts of the alkaloids.  When you add the hydrochloric (muriatic) acid to the acetone, the alkalids bind with the hydrochloric acid forming ibogaine hydrochloride, ibogamine hydrochloride, and ibogaline(?) hydrochloride, which are water soluble, but not soluble in the non-polar solution, so they precipitate out.  You will filter this out and it is your PTA, which will be a fine crystally or powdery extract. 

You can evaporate the acetone after that to recover any residual alkaloids that don't form a salt with hydrochloric acid.  This could then be mixed with the PTA to get all the alkaloids, however the PTA will be more pure, and stronger, if kept separate.
GratefulDad

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Iboga Panacea

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Re: PTA vrs. TA (Purified Total Alkaloids vrs. Total Alkaloids)
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2012, 09:56:01 PM »
Shit OK,
Not easy but must be done.  And I detest working with chemicals but must get over my issues.  So when one makes this product is that the same as what Iboga World and the other companies make?  Bottom line what I really want to say is I think some have accidently put some false info out there that homemade TA is comparable to professional TA or PTA as what you have given instructions for.  It must be done though, I must say something has lacked in the visions I have had with the regular vinegar TA or the Alcohol TA that I have made.  Just doesn't go far enough nor is a guarantee like the professional PTA.

So the confusion I had is in those previous threads I thought it was for hcl, I guess I was mistaken, seems relatively easy to make hcl after this point.  I'm curious how you figured all this out, seems like a lot of know how. At some point in order to forgo confusion I would like to make a thread specifically for making PTA with your instructions so others in the future that want to make the "real deal" don't think that vinegar TA is the real deal like what they would get from a company selling TA.   

So one last question:
Will the dosage of this PTA be the same for the "TA" that Iboga World has? 

Thanks I really appreciate it. 

Iboga Panacea

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Re: PTA vrs. TA (Purified Total Alkaloids vrs. Total Alkaloids)
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2012, 10:21:14 PM »
So sorry Grateful Dad,
Can you refer me to the exact thread where you have posted the extractions.  I see several but not sure which is the exact one. 

I appreciate it and will return the favor some day. 

Iboga Panacea

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Re: PTA vrs. TA (Purified Total Alkaloids vrs. Total Alkaloids)
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2012, 10:40:00 PM »
I'm all over this, apologies again.  Hopefully this will help others in the future.

Quote
You then filter them out, rinse them well, and let them dry.

Sorry is this what you meant later here as well with distilled water...
Quote
You want to filter this extract out, rinse it well with distilled water, then let it dry completely before dissolving it in acetone.

So I guess this acid/base or base/acid extract is the reason why Bancopuma used the calcium hydroxide in his limonene extraction.

http://eboka.info/index.php?topic=661.0

Having never done an intensive extraction like this there is a huge learning curve.  Hope I can figure this out. 


Offline GratefulDad

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Re: PTA vrs. TA (Purified Total Alkaloids vrs. Total Alkaloids)
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2012, 10:50:22 AM »
I'm all over this, apologies again.  Hopefully this will help others in the future.

Quote
You then filter them out, rinse them well, and let them dry.

Sorry is this what you meant later here as well with distilled water...
Quote
You want to filter this extract out, rinse it well with distilled water, then let it dry completely before dissolving it in acetone.
  Yes..

So I guess this acid/base or base/acid extract is the reason why Bancopuma used the calcium hydroxide in his limonene extraction.
Yes..

http://eboka.info/index.php?topic=661.0

Having never done an intensive extraction like this there is a huge learning curve.  Hope I can figure this out. 



Here is the link to the complete extraction for making a professional grade TA.  http://eboka.info/index.php?topic=7.msg667#msg667 

The dosage would be just like what IW would recommend, although there may be some variation, depending on the bark (starting materials).  Better the bark, better the yield, and better the extract.  The extraction I posted is the same one Cerberus Extract uses to make their TA, if I am not mistaken.  I just basically typed out a step by step recipe for people who don't understand all the chemical processes that occur, since I have extensive experience in extracting plants.  Hopefully it's easy to follow, and there are a few tips that might help, just ask, if you have any questions, though!
GratefulDad

"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason."

Iboga Panacea

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Re: PTA vrs. TA (Purified Total Alkaloids vrs. Total Alkaloids)
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2012, 01:33:50 PM »
Now I have been using the PTA method based on Grateful Dad's recipe.

Results are incredible!

I would implore others to look into this.  TA using the vinegar method is NOT I repeat NOT the same as PTA in effectiveness or product quality.  It might even be rather irresponsible to advocate for standard TA using simple vinegar tek when the PTA provides a near guarantee if not complete guarantee in TKO'ing any person that comes to it's abode.  I find that the TA using vinegar tek is not always such a guarantee and I get very irritated when 2 hours after administration a person can still walk and form sentences.

With the PTA they can't form sentences and are silent in dream world, they need help walking.  FULL ON!!! GUARANTEE TKO (that's what we're going for folks "flood" aka "monsoon" straight up Katrina there ass, shit Sandy them) because that's the REBIRTH.  Nothing less.  The TA using vinegar is often less, too risky when treating addicts or other people that need a desperate rebirth. 

There are posts on here and threads saying how great TA is, be thorough in going the extra length and don't shortcut what should be the ultimate spiritual experience.  No let downs in this department of Ebokia.   

I know Bancopuma and Harveyplex have advocated for standard TA using vinegar over and over again, it's just not the same though as the PTA.  I would much rather insure that folks get the full experience so they don't have to do repeated treatments ext. ext. 

Blessings!

Offline mycotheologist

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Re: PTA vrs. TA (Purified Total Alkaloids vrs. Total Alkaloids)
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2012, 04:44:52 PM »
You want to dissolve the freebase extract in the acetone, because freebases are soluble in non-polar solvents.  You want to complete this step over night, because iboga alkaloids degrade very fast when in solution.  Leaving it in solution for days or longer will degrade your alkaloids, so don't wait, finish it.  Also, the alkaloids are not very stable in freebase form, so once you begin the extraction, you should complete it as quickly as possible, to reduce any possible degradation. 

Are you sure about this (that iboga alkaloids degrade easily in solution)? Can you provide a reference for that? If this is the case, then heating of the aqueous solution (when the solvent is water, especially acidic or alkaline water) should be avoided at all costs because degradation of compounds is generally proportional to the temperature of the solvent.  Heating the acetone should be safe since its an aprotic solvent therefore it won't contribute to degradation of the alkaloids. Plus, its boiling point is only around 60C. I'm worried now that I destroyed most of the alkaloids in my solution because I lightly boiled the acidified solution for about an hour in order to evaporate some of it and I also let it sit overnight. If I'm not mistaken, acids greatly contribute to the degradation of alkaloids.

BTW, did you study chem in college? You sound like you know your shit. I'm a chem major myself.