Author Topic: Microdosing conflicting information  (Read 5770 times)

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Offline ryu

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Microdosing conflicting information
« on: June 02, 2016, 08:34:07 AM »
Hi all,

Im not neuroscientist so please excuse my ignorance if I have missed something here.

Im on week 2 on a microdosing schedule and have some thoughs I would like feedback on.

I take approx 20mg of rootbark sublingually everything morning and spend a few minutes looking into the mirror and repeating (aloud) my intent/affirmations.

Within a few minutes I notice a clearing in my headspace and I feel focused and proactive. However, the positive Iboga seems to wear off after approx 6 hours and I fell a comedown effect with typical effects being a slight anger, irritability and restlessness. Iboga in small doses is stimulating and it makes perfect sense that I get these effects as it wears off. From this point of view it seems a little like the crash from caffeine.

I have also noticed a real tiredness and exhaustion too. All this indicates to me that it is stimulating my dopamine/norepinephrine system. What concerns me is that whilst microdosing Iboga can have these wonderful effects on brain chemistry and craving etc, is there also a consequence of daily microdosing ie Adrenal fatigue etc. In which case the microdosing schedule can actually be counter productive.

The conflict for me is that if Iboga is supposed to repair receptor sites etc then the crash from microdosing would suggest otherwise.

I have asked myself whether its just me that has these effects but it appears several other people find this is also the case.

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Ryu




Offline ddraig

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Re: Microdosing conflicting information
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2016, 11:20:00 AM »
I know that Alexandra Lost mentioned how small amounts of iboga can act homeopathically, and sounds like you are using very small amounts as well.
You mentioned that you are on week 2. Did you notice this crash effect right from the beginning, or did you start noticing it as the days went by?
I'm wondering if shortening the microdosing cycle might be a solution.

Offline ryu

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Re: Microdosing conflicting information
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2016, 02:08:43 PM »
Hi ddraig,

I noticed the crash from day two/three really. There is a really apathy and lack of motivation when the Iboga wheres off and that reminds me of dopamine deficiency/ depletion.

 :-)

Ryu

Offline RhythmSpring

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Re: Microdosing conflicting information
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2016, 07:25:16 PM »
Three thoughts come to mind:

1. 20mg of rootbark is very very little. Of course it would wear off after 6 hours, and, perhaps your body/mind/spirit is craving more--perhaps you're just teasing your receptors with what could be a more dynamic microdosing experience.

2. If you are tired, maybe it'd be a good idea to ask what you're tired *of.* Maybe something else you are doing in your daily life is exhausting you.

3. You experience a surge of energy, and then a crash. What goes up must come down, eh? Perhaps iboga's root mode of action is to show us the Right way. Instead of *giving* you more energy, perhaps it steers you into paths of action that have more energy/harmony flowing through it. Just a (weird) thought.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2016, 10:23:12 PM by RhythmSpring »

Offline ryu

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Re: Microdosing conflicting information
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2016, 07:05:25 AM »
Thanks Rhythmspring. Interesting thoughts to ponder over.

I found an old post by miss demeanor expressing the same issues i have been experiencing and its transpires that the apathy, restlessness etc is due to a reduction in dopamine. Iboga has a stronger affinity to Serotonin than it does with dopamine and as serotonin levels are increased, dopamine levels are reduced. Miss demeanor used Mucuna (HIGH IN L DOPA)  to rebalance brain chemistry. Outcome was positive!

I have some Mucuna with me. Im going to try it over the next week and will report the results.

Peace and love

Ryu

Offline Alexandra Lost

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Re: Microdosing conflicting information
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2016, 05:30:56 PM »
I'm not a neuroscientist or a chemist either, but I have microdosed in a way similar to what you are doing.

Everyone has a different body chemistry and iboga rootbark has several different active components. For me, I feel the SSRI effect very strongly in the very small doses. If I take a larger dose ( say 150mg to 400mg, which is still considered a low microdose. ) it's not the same effect X10. It's a little more powerful but mostly it's a different effect.

While I have been working with the low microdoses as a booster, my INITIAL microdoses were much higher at 350-700mg a day. One downside to using the really low doses is you're probably not getting much of the noribogaine "glow" - this is a metabolite that has some selective opioid receptor binding, very important in addiction interruption.

I also get a lot of the anger/irritability with the low doses, especially if I don't commit to a long daily meditation. I've actually refrained from microdosing for the past several months because I've been under much stress and I'm concerned about managing those effects, opting to stick with yoga and meditation ( and mucuna dopa, which is subtle but nice ).

BTW, I'm at the 3 year mark this week and still basically clean. I haven't been perfect but my "slips" have been mild and few and far between.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 05:34:44 PM by Alexandra Lost »

Offline Alexandra Lost

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Re: Microdosing conflicting information
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2016, 10:01:37 PM »
Just a clarification.

Here's the thread  from 2013 where I describe my microdosing schedule -  it was a little lower than I remembered.

http://eboka.info/index.php?topic=2127.msg17398#

Post #6 is the relevant one .... I pretty sure I took a 600mg dose only once or twice - all else was under 300
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 10:05:08 PM by Alexandra Lost »

Offline ryu

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Re: Microdosing conflicting information
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2016, 05:31:59 AM »
Hi Alexander L,

Really interesting post, especially the bit you mention about the glow at 350-700mg. I will also take a look at your microdosing schedule posts.

I really like Mucuna, my only concern is that if the Dopaminergic is flooded with dopamine will the receptor sites will stay down regulated thus preventing homestasis.

Again, i dont know if I am right here but would Mucuna and cocaine act in a similiar way on receptor sites ie down regulation.

Assuming Iboga helps Homeostasis would Mucuna get in the way of this healing process.

Im still trying to get some clarity on up regulation and down regulation of receptor sites and I think its a subject that is worth pondering and investigating.

Heres a link i found explaining up and down regulation.

------------------------------
2. Down & Up Regulation

Down-regulation - when excessive numbers of transmitter molecules are available to the receptor over a period of time, a decrease in the receptor sites can be counted. This is called down-regulation. It accounts for tolerance e.g., when heroine consistently occupies opiod binding sites. The desensitized post-synaptic neuron will not respond to average amounts of heroine, but increased amounts are required to obtain and opiod effect. This in turn induces greater levels of tolerance.

Up-regulation - the reverse occurs when decreased number of transmitter molecules are available  at post-synaptic receptors. This leads to up-regulation with increased number of sensitized receptors. Such a condition would occur during a receptor blockade. e.g., the anti-psychotic medication thorazine bocks the dopamine receptor inducing up-regulation. As a result, additional dopamine receptors appear on the post-synaptic membrane. At this point the post-synaptic neuron is hypersensitive, and if the blockade is ended, even average amounts of dopamine can cause the movement disorder: Tardive Dyskinesia. This condition may be treated by administration of dopamine agonists or by reestablishing the dopamine blockade.

----------------------

My initial understanding of up and down regulation is incorrect. I always thought that receptor sites would increase to cope with a flood of dopamine/ serotonin etc. It made sense to me that when the dopamine/serotonin stores were back to their normal levels, basic stimulus such as sex,food,exercise etc wouldnt fill the gaps in the (upregulated) receptor sites and thats where drink/drug seeking behaviour/addiction occurs as it is the only thing that (through flooding) fills all the gaps (satisfies) in the receptor sites.

I know I am wrong in my initial thoughts but its seems logical. I am not arrogant enough to believe I am right. I am clearly wrong but my theory ( in my limited understanding) seems logical and correct.


What do you all think? Can you shed some more light on this.

:-)

Ryu

Offline Alexandra Lost

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Re: Microdosing conflicting information
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2016, 05:46:47 PM »
Very interesting post, Ryu.

Technicalities aside , I don't think I would be too concerned unless I felt like there was something inhibiting the healing process or that a positive effect was being dampened.

Brain chemistry is all really very complicated, and there are other factors like re-uptake rate .....which can be affected by complex substances like Mucuna and iboga. And everyone's brain chemistry is different and we all know state of mind makes a huge difference, too.

When I've taken iboga and mucuna at the same time ( it's been a while ), I felt that the mucuna took edge off some of the anxiety side effects, so another POV might be that the interference can be a good thing.

I generally take it in occasional largish doses before a deep meditation. My interest is not so much the dopamine as the trace amount of 5-MeO-DMT contained in the mucuna plant. It really is a trace so the effect is subtle, but it's there.

Offline iboga

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Re: Microdosing conflicting information
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2016, 08:07:01 AM »
I think the liver has a primarily role and if liver is damage so iboga can become hard for the system

Offline yohimb223

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Re: Microdosing conflicting information
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2016, 05:24:32 PM »
         Hello!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Anybody home?????????????????????
  Had to go thru old posts to see what exactly my user name was!!!!

       
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 09:34:24 AM by yohimb223 »