Topic: Anxiety Treatment

[Eon T McKnight]

I am having a HUGE problem with anxiety these days.  I am starting this topic on anxiety 1) to be able to discuss anxiety and its treatment and 2) to find help for myself and others in a similar situation.

There are two primary factors to my condition, the first is the continual presence of anxiety in my life since the age of 4.  The second is that I have recently dug myself into a deep, dark financial hole  --  one that has tweaked my anxiety to panic levels.

While iboga has helped to reduce my level of anxiety almost totally for periods and has reduced overall anxiety, it has barely put a dent in it.  I am still too anxious to deal with the source of my anxiety (finances, etc.).

I am thinking that I might have to break down and see an MD for anxiolytics, maybe even a benzo.  However, we all know those drugs do not cure anything, which is why I totally intend to proceed with iboga therapy.  The problem is that iboga does not look like it is going to be a 'quick fix' for my problem  --  and I'm hoping I'm wrong.  (At least, it would be irresponsible to count on a quick fix.)

I do not think that doing another flood dose is really what I need.  Plus, my financial condition causes me to seek more economical methods.  I don't need to be anxious about how much money I spend on iboga along with everything else.

--> Are there any anti-anxiety drugs/supplements that would fit well with ongoing iboga treatment?

--> How can iboga be used to treat long-term, chronic anxiety?

Your kind help will be greatly appreciated!

Peace, Love & More Peace!

Eon T McKnight

[Eon T McKnight]

From another one of my posts  --  figured I should add it here since it's what got me started on this topic.  The post is referring to the use of 1g of RB a day as an antidepressant.  Would it work as an anxiolytic, too?  Or, would it make the anxiety even more uncomfortable?  ~e

I have heard that when one uses RB on a regular basis, it builds up in the system and leads to an unpleasant state of stimulation.  Along with depression, I have a big, big problem with anxiety.  My recent thought is that the anxiety is a major causative factor for my depression.

My level of anxiety rises and falls from day-to-day and hour-to-hour.  I am concerned that the stimulatory effects of RB added to the effects of a panic attack would be monumentally hard to deal with.

[fallout330]

Sorry to hear of the financial trouble Eon.  Finances have always brought anxiety to be as well, to some extent.  I usually try to live as simple as possible to reduce the financial burden.  No doubt, to reduce the anxiety, a positive financial change would help, if possible.  If an increase in income is not possible, maybe reducing your living expenses could help. 

There is a gentleman named Mark Boyle, somewhere in Britain, who was undergone an experiment to live without money.  So far he's been able to do so for about 18 months, so far:

http://www.justfortheloveofit.org/home

If nothing else, it is interesting to read about his own experience.

This is not to say that you should follow the same Eon  , but it may show all of us that those necessities could be reduced somewhat, or maybe controlled more effectively.

Kava and Valerian have usually helped me in reducing overall anxiety.  I couldn't say in regards to iboga, I'm still a baby in experience.

Peace Eon!

[Eon T McKnight]

Thanks for your thoughts, fallout!  Boyle is one interesting dude  --  I like his style!

I have tried valerian, but have to take so much (like 7 - 12 caps of the strongest stuff I can find) it really screws up my digestive system  --  green gooey or watery poop for days after.  There is no way I could do it on a regular basis.

et

[riverhaven]

From what I have read, while ibogaine floods can help withdrawal related anxiety, there are a significant number of patients that post-flood have anxiety issues, difficulty sleeping, feelings of being overstimulated or "wired"... so I don't think iboga would be a very good choice at all for treating chronic anxiety.  Indeed, in my research for using it for microdosing-- chronic pain patients have to cycle it because after too many weeks on even a low dose, they get the "wired" feeling. 

I surely can understand your desire not to start on yet another addictive drug-- all the benzos and their cousins.  You will become addicted as do most people that get on them for any length of time and getting off them is no fun.  But, they DO work well.  You may have to play around with which one works best for you with the least side effects-- but if you want relief, they will do the job.

As for supplements-- I have found passionflower to be very calming and not sedating.  It supposedly helps your brain produce it's own calming chemicals-- endorphins, dopamine and the like.  Indeed, when I was without it for a long weekend, I did notice that I was more easily upset by things.  I have no side effects from it either.   Also, while doing the detox from opiates-- I did the 4000 mg tyrosine with a Vit B6 on an empty stomach each morning and while it helped me wake up ( ie was a bit stimulatory)-- it did also even out my moods during the morning and early afternoon.  It does this also by helping your brain make dopamine. 

HTH

[Nganga Nobunoni +]

Flood dose of Iboga' deal with all the stuff that is creating the anxiety' come back blank' no top ups' no further Iboga or substances for at least 6 weeks'

Allow Iboga to rewire your brain!

This is of how Iboga beats anxiety!

Bliss!

Nobu +

No alcohol or opiates or benzos after iboga' they kill ibo's binding to sites within the brain' and leave one with residual stimulation of which brings back anxieties'

[Eon T McKnight]

Hi river!

Welcome you to the Forum!  I think it's really great to have an MD contributing.  The effort you have put into helping us clearly demonstrates your commitment to healing.  You have my sincere thanks!

My first course of iboga therapy took place during a reprieve from sources (financial, etc.) that contributed to what I'll call 'acute anxiety' and I did find pretty much total relief from chronic anxiety and depression.

With the return of the sources of my acute anxiety, unfortunately, both depression and anxiety have returned.  The good news being that neither has returned to pre-iboga levels.

While fear & anxiety certainly have a necessary role in protecting the individual and in driving survival oriented behavior, too much anxiety leads to inappropriate responses.  How does one tweak anxiety levels to be maximally helpful?

To control my anxiety, I have been meditating, but I have not reached the level of proficiency where I can just turn off anxiety the way that could be done with BZDs (BenZoDiazepenes).  It concerns me that using BZDs (like alcohol) for acute episodes would not help my progress with meditation.  Plus, my ability to build a tolerance to just about every drug I have ever used would possibly lead to escalating doses and a nasty addiction.

I'm wondering if I could limit BZD use to only stressful, anxiety producing situations...

Since I also have insomnia, I went looking for something that would help me sleep.  Upon looking up Lunesta, though, I found this discouraging wiki entry:

Increased risk of depression

It has been claimed that insomnia causes depression and hypothesized that insomnia medications may help to treat depression. However, an analysis of data of clinical trials submitted to the FDA concerning the drugs zolpidem, zaleplon and eszopiclone found that these sedative hypnotic drugs more than doubled the risks of developing depression compared to those taking placebo pills. Hypnotic drugs therefore may be contraindicated in patients suffering from or at risk of depression. Hypnotics were found to be more likely to cause depression than to help it.

Sigh!

I have used Buspar in the past and it has provided fantastic relief.  The effects were somewhat similar to MDMA!  Unfortunately, the relief only lasts for a couple of hours at a time and is not dependable  --  sometimes it doesn't work at all.  Larger doses (>30mg) were not any more helpful and had uncomfortable side effects.

I wonder if MDMA would be of benefit...  (Too bad that finding real MDMA is just about impossible nowadays or I could find out.)

Does anyone else have any information or experience that confirms or refutes Nobu's claims that BZDs spoil iboga's good effects?

~eon

[GratefulDad]

I might be afraid of MDMA with iboga.  I know with 2cb it did intensify it's effects.  With iboga, it makes me a a bit more sensitive to everything.  I did LSD tonight, but my last dose of iboga was two days ago..  Benzos would dull the effects of iboga for sure.  I am gonna kinda go with Nobu, though, just from my gut..  I mean I ain't got any science for you, but I can tell how iboga works for me..  I am getting pretty in tune with iboga, and I think it will teach you how to use it if you let it..

[niceboat]

--> Are there any anti-anxiety drugs/supplements that would fit well with ongoing iboga treatment?

I haven't yet started Iboga to know if it fits well with Salvia, but Salvia has great anti-anxiety effects, im talking about its long afterglow as well as its sublingual low doses, some links here

http://www.shaman-australis.com/~claude/salvia3.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19422370

[Eon T McKnight]

GD  --  I was not thinking about using iboga and MDMA at the same time.  Upon considering the subject, I have to agree with you that it is probably ill advised.  At this point, my thoughts are that iboga should not be mixed with anything with the possible exception of harmine and THH.  Iboga has such nice, clear, friendly, intelligible visions and I think that combining it with other substances would only lead to a loss of clarity, etc.

Allow me to rephrase my question:

Are there any anti-anxiety drugs/supplements, to be used in between iboga treatments, that would fit well with ongoing iboga treatment?

That is, I need anxiety relief to be able to function and remove the causes of my anxiety, but I do not want any drug-based treatment to interfere or negate the progress brought about by iboga.


Niceboat  --  Thanks for your suggestion and the links!  I have noticed a definite reduction in anxiety and depression (the two are closely linked in my abnormal brain) the day after using salvia.

Even though the shaman-australis link describes use of S. splendens, I do have some S. divinorum that I can try.  I'll let you know what I find out.  It will be fantastic if a quid of salvia helps; I had never considered using the leaf since the Mazatecs use somewhere around 30 - 40 leaves for an entheogenic experience.  The 'day-after' effects, though, suggest that the anti-anxiety/depressive nature of the plant might indeed be present in low doses.


As for the BZDs, I know that Cal has combined them with treatments.  Also, goatboy has been using them since his flood.  Think I'll PM them boyz and invite their responses.

Since BZDs' effects are confined to the BZD receptors, and iboga does not bind there, I see no mechanism for BZDs to affect the GDNF production that appears to be the key to iboga's long-term benefits.

Please don't think I'm being any sort of BZD advocate here, I really don't like 'em.  I do need to get functional, though  --  that is of prime importance to me at this time.

~et

[riverhaven]

Eon your thinking processes thru each suggestion sound right to me.   Especially that the BZDs won't interfere with your ibogaine.  However-- in your comment to me-- I really worry how you develop tolerance and nasty addiction.  BE CAREFUL.  I do think it is possible for addicts to become functional users- but it requires incredible willpower and concentration on what you want.  Good Luck....

[Eon T McKnight]

River  --  Ten thousand thanks for your concern!  Even though I do not like BZDs and have never abused them, I am still quite concerned about getting hooked on them.  And I can't think of anything much worse than getting hooked on something I do not enjoy in the least.

The reason I started this topic is because I have begun the process to get psychological and psychiatric help.  To solve a problem, one has to first stop denying that a problem exists.  It may take quite some time to definitively deal with my psychological demons, and in the mean time I need to be functional and not kill myself with anxiety that is out of control.

The one prescription medication, out of the numerous ones I have tried, that has worked for both depression and moderate anxiety is Moclobemide, a RIMA (Reversible Inhibitor of MAO A).  The problem with that is that it has yet to be approved in the US.  That fact does not, however, prevent me from purchasing it over the web.

The deal with moclobemide is that it does not work with acute anxiety and worsens my insomnia.  So, what I am currently thinking is using moclobemide daily along with something to deal with the occasional bouts of acute anxiety and something to help me sleep.

Maybe two different medications could be used:  BZDs for occasional extreme anxiety and something else for sleep.  That might minimize the danger of getting hooked on either one.

Too bad they don't make Qualudes anymore.  I didn't like or abuse them, but they were great for putting me to sleep...

~et

[x]

Eon, can I ask how much RB you took when you did your flood? I can't seem to find it here in the forum.

Tia to the maxx!

(edited cuz I said GD and not Eon initially)

[x]

Uh geez, total mind finger disconnect.
Eon, I mean TA, not RB.

[Eon T McKnight]

Hi Tia,

You probably didn't hear my announcement about doing a flood because I never made one. (heh)

The reason why I only mentioned it a couple of times in passing is that it was done without a sitter, and I did not want to encourage anyone to do the same.  Due to considerable use of harmaline over the years, I have become extremely proficient in dealing with ataxia, and iboga presents no more challenge to me than walking around on peyote, LSD or mushrooms.  Actually, it's easier than trying to find my way around after a large dose of ayahuasca.

To answer your question, I used 3.5g of TA for my flood.

After a series of treatments, using a total of ~9g of TA, my depression and anxiety were pretty much gone.  Unfortunately, the iboga did not remove those external things (AKA reality, the cold cruel world) that trigger anxiety and depression for me, so some of my progress evaporated.

No matter how much iboga I throw at them, those external triggers are not going to go away until I deal with them.  So I now see my best course of action to be eliminating those triggers.  To do that, I have to manage my levels of anxiety and depression.  I have found iboga a big help with depression but not as much help with anxiety.

So, that's why I want to continue iboga treatment for depression while also treating the symptoms of anxiety by other means.  From experience with the on-again-off-again effects of buspar, I am confident that I can get things taken care of if I can just eliminate acute anxiety.

~eon