Eboka.Info

Eboka Science => Eboka Pharmacology, Research and Clinical Findings => Topic started by: Calaquendi on September 29, 2009, 12:37:50 AM

Title: Voacanga Africana
Post by: Calaquendi on September 29, 2009, 12:37:50 AM
Here a few links dug up on V.africana -

http://www.erowid.org/plants/voacanga_africana/voacanga_africana_info1.shtml

http://www.puzzlepiece.org/ibogaine/literature/taylor1965.pdf

Some extraction info :

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-70658.html

Any more input here would be much appreciated. Does anyone have experience with this material?

I know a number of other plants containing iboga alkaloids exist (star anise,etc) but in much smaller quantities and presumably containing unwanted nasties. It would be nice to explore some options with other materials, are there any practical and safe methods for doing an effective extract on some of the more obscure varieties containing alkaloids?

Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: Psychenaut on October 06, 2009, 11:10:37 PM
Anise or Jasmine? 
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: fallout330 on October 07, 2009, 12:00:46 PM
I've heard Cal......but the difficulty in extraction is very high, from what I understand.
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana -- Experimental Extraction Procedure
Post by: Eon T McKnight on December 30, 2009, 08:22:59 PM
Since I have no T. iboga with which to experiment, I am planning on making a mixed alkaloid extract of Voacanga africana root bark.  There are some questions I am hoping can be answered by the collective experience of this Forum.  Since the major alkaloid, voacangine, is very similar to ibogaine, it is likely that the results obtained will be similar to those of T. iboga.

1)  Does anyone have any experience or information re:  the fumarate salt of voacangine (or ibogaine)?  I am planning on extracting the Voacanga alkaloids with acetone and precipitating the fumarate salts by adding a solution of fumaric acid dissolved in acetone.  This method has been used with success with DMT, and I am hoping that it works as well with voacangine/ibogaine.

2)  Has anyone used either voacangine fumarate or ibogaine fumarate?  If so, were the subjective effects (pharmacodynamics) similar to other salts (e.g. hydrochloride or acetate) or the freebase?

3)  I have yet to find any information on the use of a V. africana root bark extract on the web, most experiences reported are for the seeds.  Any information will be appreciated.

After making the effort to obtain a V. africana extract, I am considering a bioassay.  Since it will be helpful in documenting the procedure and effects if I survive the experiment  ;) , I will start out with a low dose.  (The LD50 (i.v.) in mice is 54 mg/kg, somewhat higher than ibogaine at 42 mg/kg.)

4)  What would constitute a threshold dose of voacangine?

5)  Since I do not expect an answer to the above question, what is a threshold dose of ibogaine HCl?

If the extraction procedure is effective, it has several benefits:  Quick, simple, no extremely toxic chems, relatively safe (acetone is flammable, but no heat will be used), and the result should be very pure.  The only downside is that fumaric acid is not widely available, though it can be purchased for low cost over the web.

I will be cross-posting this to the mindvox list in hopes that its wider audience contains someone with answers to my questions.  If this experiment works, I will be expecting donations of T. iboga root bark with which to continue this vital, groundbreaking research (har har yeah yeah I know:  in my dreams.   :D ).

BTW Igor says "Hi"  --  I might just let him be the first to experience voacangine fumarate (if he begs sincerely and long enough).

Yer Pal, Eon
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: Calaquendi on January 01, 2010, 02:45:24 PM
Well...that's really jumping in with both feet my friend. I don't know what to make of it quite yet, but I have always been leery of V.africana - this is probably due mainly to ignorance of how best to draw the useful alks out and have something to safely consume...wanted to respond to this post even though I have no answers for you yet. You've given me much to think about, be careful dude, please, and keep us up to date!
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: Eon T McKnight on January 01, 2010, 05:54:08 PM
Friend Cal,

Not to worry, it appears that Voacanga has some nasty side-effects at large doses, which include headache, stomach distress and lethargy lasting days afterward, from both seeds and root bark.

Since I just happened to have 32 gms of root bark from a trusted herbal supplier on hand, I figured that it would be useful to attempt an extraction process that would probably work for T. iboga as well.

I was contemplating a threshold dose just to verify the nature of the result.  No large doses contemplated!

Should a significant yield be obtained, a conversion might be in order, but that is totally up in the air for the time being.  Though obtaining clean looking crystals and a tight melt point range similar to ibogaine would be good indicators of success, I would be very wary (vewy wawy?) of injesting the results without further tests re: substance ID and purity.

Another possibility would be isolating voacangine or other alks from the mixed alkaloid result in hopes that the other alks are the ones causing the bad side-effects.  This path would entail a commitment that I do not think I am able to make at this time in addition to chemistry requiring chems and equipment that I do not posess.

If I can successfully apply the fumarate tek used by others on Mimosa to Voacanga, that would be good enough for now.

~eon
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: fallout330 on January 01, 2010, 07:10:23 PM
That would be a very interesting, but undoubtedly complicated attempt, Eon.  I've always been interested in the conversion of Voacangine to Ibogaine. I know I would be very interested to hear back on any results you main attain.

Peace

Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: x on January 02, 2010, 02:27:14 AM
I'm happy to hold dear some freaky deaky chemtek folk. Yup YOU.
I never need to try V. Af, but if you come to hang out at mi casa, let's see what kind of interesting conversations we can get into. I'm still a baby to chemisrty, and I attempt to take in all that is conveyed.


Talk soon!
T
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: Eon T McKnight on January 02, 2010, 05:20:52 PM
Freaky deaky???  That's one I haven't heard before.  Since it is preceeded by "happy" and "hold dear" I shall interpret it as both a compliment and and expression of friendship.

Just a couple of questions:  If I want to express my high regard and affection to a female friend, which usage is preferred?

     "My sweetie deaky Tia"

--or--

     "My deaky sweetie Tia"

--or--

     Is 'deaky' a strictly masculine term?

Your guidance in this crucial matter will be appreciated ever so much!

ET
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: Calaquendi on January 03, 2010, 04:19:15 AM
yeah...what is "deaky'?  ;D
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: Eon T McKnight on January 12, 2010, 01:57:59 AM
"A dense snowstorm of huge white crystals appeared when I added the fumaric acid solution"  was what I hoped to be writing.

Sadly, that is not the case.

Could be the starting material.  Could be my amateurish technique.

Am re-extracting with vinegar and will put everything in one pot in hopes that there is something in there.  More later...   ~e
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: Nganga Nobunoni on January 24, 2010, 08:55:49 AM
Voacanga alkaloids are stimulating' and you would no wish to take a large dose' ie over 60mg alks' it is extremely uncomfortable on the body' causing discomfort in the chest and liver/stomach area'
Adaptegenic with Iboga alks' but extremely uncomfortable on it's own
Large doese of Voacangine are used in poison darts for to kill monkeys and birds'

Persoanl experience'

V.A. is nasty stuff' it has no visuals' is psycho-active' stimulating' if you take too much you shall be lethargic' sick' strange body pains' severe chest pain' stomach cramps for 3-4 days' with a profound inability to sleep'

Advice' no worth extracting' just mix the powdered bark with Iboga' it actualy makes the Iboga alks secondary bind more efficiently to opiate receptors'
Practicaly useless on it's own' unless took for the specific effect of stimulation'

Out of all of these moles' Voacangine is the most uncomfortable and in my opinion a complete waste of time'

Tabernanthine is way better and also visual' very similiar to Ibogaine' Ibogaline' Ibogamine'

Be very careful'

Voacanga Africana is traditionaly used as a stimulant and also to give a kick to Iboga!

Bliss!

Nobu +
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: Nganga Nobunoni on January 24, 2010, 10:10:08 AM
"A dense snowstorm of huge white crystals appeared when I added the fumaric acid solution"  was what I hoped to be writing.

Sadly, that is not the case.

Could be the starting material.  Could be my amateurish technique.

Am re-extracting with vinegar and will put everything in one pot in hopes that there is something in there.  More later...   ~e

Hehehe' big smiles'

Chemistry' use acetic acid solution or pure methanol'


Acetone = evaporated acetone extract gives an unstable oil that is almost impossible to crystalise out of acetone with an acid or a base' there is also the unanswerd question of acetone extracts worked with bases making SCHIFF base molecules'


It is possible to acid salt the molecules whilst in the acetone' but a loss is noticed every time' and a mass of totaly insoluble matter falls out of the solution along with the required molecules'
Washing it again and filtering yeilds some fine residue' but of where are all the molecules gone from 100 grams of woods that you eat 5 grams of an nearly fall over' see yourself smiling back at yourself through the veil' white birds flying everywhere'


Keep things simple'

Methanol attracts less oxygen than ethanol and all these moles are soluble in warm methanol'


Bliss!

Nobu +

Question' is this an open or private forum ?

Becasue I no talk chemistry to the world'
Inform me of the answer to this question as soon as!

Be Well!

Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: GratefulDad on January 24, 2010, 10:48:00 AM
Well, I am a registered member, but I can see your post fine.  Perhaps asking Calaquendi to form a private forum here for discussing the chemistry of ibogaine, would be a good addition, and only certain members in good standing in this community would be allowed. 

I'll try and catch him when I can and discuss it with him.  Then, for very important chemistry or teks to be posted for the public, we could make them posted as anonymous, or just keep them private due to each users request.  This may allow this forum to grow well, and draw in a bigger crowd for iboga help, but still provide a more private area for those of us with a bit more experience who can perfect the knowledge of these things among ourselves before sharing it with the rest of the world. 

Just an idea, but I'd like to hear others opinions on the matter.  Maybe start a new thread?  Feel free to move this as needed, mods! 

GD
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: GratefulDad on January 24, 2010, 11:00:29 AM
Since I have no T. iboga with which to experiment, I am planning on making a mixed alkaloid extract of Voacanga africana root bark.  There are some questions I am hoping can be answered by the collective experience of this Forum.  Since the major alkaloid, voacangine, is very similar to ibogaine, it is likely that the results obtained will be similar to those of T. iboga.

1)  Does anyone have any experience or information re:  the fumarate salt of voacangine (or ibogaine)?  I am planning on extracting the Voacanga alkaloids with acetone and precipitating the fumarate salts by adding a solution of fumaric acid dissolved in acetone.  This method has been used with success with DMT, and I am hoping that it works as well with voacangine/ibogaine.

2)  Has anyone used either voacangine fumarate or ibogaine fumarate?  If so, were the subjective effects (pharmacodynamics) similar to other salts (e.g. hydrochloride or acetate) or the freebase?

3)  I have yet to find any information on the use of a V. africana root bark extract on the web, most experiences reported are for the seeds.  Any information will be appreciated.

After making the effort to obtain a V. africana extract, I am considering a bioassay.  Since it will be helpful in documenting the procedure and effects if I survive the experiment  ;) , I will start out with a low dose.  (The LD50 (i.v.) in mice is 54 mg/kg, somewhat higher than ibogaine at 42 mg/kg.)

4)  What would constitute a threshold dose of voacangine?

5)  Since I do not expect an answer to the above question, what is a threshold dose of ibogaine HCl?

If the extraction procedure is effective, it has several benefits:  Quick, simple, no extremely toxic chems, relatively safe (acetone is flammable, but no heat will be used), and the result should be very pure.  The only downside is that fumaric acid is not widely available, though it can be purchased for low cost over the web.

I will be cross-posting this to the mindvox list in hopes that its wider audience contains someone with answers to my questions.  If this experiment works, I will be expecting donations of T. iboga root bark with which to continue this vital, groundbreaking research (har har yeah yeah I know:  in my dreams.   :D ).

BTW Igor says "Hi"  --  I might just let him be the first to experience voacangine fumarate (if he begs sincerely and long enough).

Yer Pal, Eon
I haven't played around with voacanga extract other than some that was extracted for me by one of the guys at ethnogarden 6 years or so ago.  However, I have extracted freebase ibogaine and can make a very pure total alkaloid extract. 

I can take the iboga bark and purify it to a very pure TA, or even take it further to 98% pure ibogaine HCl.  I have spoken extensively with Chris Jenks, the guy who posted how to extract and purify the ibogaine HCl from the bark, and have posted a much simpler step by step extraction in another thread, here: http://eboka.pkeffect.com/index.php?topic=7.msg534#msg534

If this is of any interest, let me know, and I can try and make any unclear parts easier to understand, if anyone needs any help.  Sorry if this strays off topic a bit, but I figured since you were working with voacangine as a possible route to ibogaine or something, then this might be somewhat relevant in how the iboga alkaloids react.
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: Nganga Nobunoni on January 24, 2010, 11:47:10 AM
Thanks for the info' I shall limit my posts now !!

Heads up on all the tech work' but it is a very good idea to limit this knowledge publicly'
Experimental gets too much press' it gets wiped out'
Be careful'
Be Safe'

All the Best'

Bliss!

Nobu +

Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: Calaquendi on January 24, 2010, 09:10:19 PM
This is an open forum, but as it attracts people with some experience in chemistry and such I see the need to discuss certain things in a more private setting. Last thing I want to see is someone with little or no experience trying something we discuss as hypothetical and being harmed. Good to bring this to light Nobu and GD - thanks.

I agree that perhaps the forum will experience more growth if people feel safe here - which is what I have always wanted...I'll be getting on this directly. I'm up for starting a thread with any suggestions, or if you like PM me with ideas. Either way. This place belongs to all of us....love C
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: Calaquendi on June 05, 2010, 04:37:08 PM
BUMP

Looking for anyone who has personal experience with V.africana - I think there has been some material circulating which is questionable, and of all the things it 'could' be - voacanga stands out to me. It is easily confused (by some) with T.iboga and though it contains similar alkaloids - its apples and oranges. My brother took some - a small amount of a well prepared TA and had difficult symptoms. Severe vertigo for about 36 hours with CNS depressant type effects. No visuals, diarrhea , red eyes and ataxia. He slept - so there was none of the stimulation associated with ibogaine. He is experienced in these things and would not have mistaken any of these symptoms. This is not iboga. There is scuttlebutt about those who have taken small (gram sized) doses of this root bark -which came pre powdered and so is difficult to ID - these people expressed pleasant effects with these doses and little or no side effects as I have mentioned. Anyone here have experience with large doses of extracted Voacanga? Whatever it is, it is not Tabernanthe iboga. Mistakes happen, but we need to be alert to these type things. Please share any information as there is little in the way of what I'm seeking online.
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: fallout330 on June 05, 2010, 07:05:38 PM
Hey Cal,

I think Psychenaut had a similar experience.  I believe he ordered T.Iboga root bark from Shamanic Extracts and apparently was sent V. Africana root bark instead.  The result was very unpleasant for a number of days, from what I understand.  If Psychenaut still reads the forums, maybe he can comment.

Thanks
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: Calaquendi on June 05, 2010, 08:07:40 PM
Thanks fallout...I'll see if I can find him, been missing him lately anyway. What you describe sounds very similar if not identical to what brother experienced. This may help nail down exactly what we are dealing with here. Like I said, mistakes happen - most vendors have scruples, and word-of-mouth is everything in these circles, so this could be and probably is just a mix up or mistaken identity. Nevertheless, its best to get these things in the open so they do not recur.. I know that I trust everyone on this forum for their integrity and their opinions - there is no culpability here (caveat emptor) and I do not look to admonish, I just have a desire to clarify. Thanks.
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: fallout330 on June 05, 2010, 11:28:37 PM
Certainly could have been an unfortunate mix-up Cal.  I certainly would like to know more if possible.  Overall I hear mostly positive results from Shamanic Extracts.
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: Eon T McKnight on June 06, 2010, 11:19:25 AM
What was the source of the TA?  I am contemplating getting some TA, HCL & RB and would be incredibly bummed-out to get something not right.

eon

PS  --  I heard vague rumors of some recent RB that was not good, but no final word yet.  ~e

PPS  --  OK, looks like my question was answered via back-channel.  The TA was from the same RB I heard about.  There are, at this time, no reports about any bad TA or HCl from commercial sources.  I suggest that you contact me via PM before buying any RB until this situation is understood.    ~e
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: Calaquendi on June 08, 2010, 10:23:03 AM
The TA was made by a friend from some (ostensibly) iboga rootbark....I have no qualms or questions about the efficacy of the extraction or the person doing it- it is the material which is in doubt. I was going to ask you about analytical processes - I know you have friends in the business....any way we can get this looked at somehow? GC/MS or x-ray chromatography...anything more sophisticated than bioassay? I know we'd have to be sneaky, but I'm really wanting a final word on this... PM me?
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: x on June 08, 2010, 10:57:50 AM
I miss Nobu.
Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: Eon T McKnight on June 08, 2010, 12:13:22 PM
Chris Jenks would be the one to ask, but he may be in Africa.  Since, with the data at hand, it appears that the RB is likely to be a combination of iboga and Voacanga  --  that's probably why it was powdered, to hide the 'cut'.

While there is a simple test to determine the presence of ibogaine, what is really needed is a test to determine if Voacanga alkaloids are present.

I seem to recall Chris Jenks published (or maybe it is on the video) for detecting Voacanga alks.  I checked my files and googled but could not find it.  I tried listening to the video now, but my broadband cellular modem is in the pits due to the weather.  Can someone with a good connection scan it?

I have been told in Gabon there are; or is; a plant that looks and tastes just like iboga and some people cut their produce with this.    ~e

Title: Re: Voacanga Africana
Post by: celestial on April 15, 2016, 10:08:32 AM
Most vendors are sending you voacanga, or just iboga root, that is reason why so much people say they have side effects or no visuals.