Author Topic: 43mg/kg dose  (Read 10416 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Psychenaut

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: 43mg/kg dose
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2010, 03:46:14 PM »
That whole message wasn't directed at you.  More at the general safety of others.. there is probably good reason why the folks in gabon don't go under over and over ;)  I speak from watching more than just myself go through floods and boosters.  More often than not you see a much bigger difference in people that let themselves go in, aren't medicated heavily with a benzo and aren't in demanding social situations. 
I want all 5 stars and a tiara or I'm not playing!!! :p

Offline Psychenaut

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: 43mg/kg dose
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2010, 03:56:51 PM »
PS.. ask Tia about the gram of rootbark that laid her out.

Where you taking quite a bit of TA before that gram dose?  I ask because normally subsequent doses are a lot less heady.

For most people it's somewhere around the 300mg TA dose (sometimes lower) that they start to get the wobbles, slight ataxia and the inability to multi-task.  You are a trouper if you can boogie on 1 gram of TA!  My max for remaining functional (accountable to others in conversation and general needs) is 1g of rootbark and the highest I've ran across before a person asking to lay down is 3grams of rb (170mg alks aprox.)

Not saying I doubt you, it's just not the norm.
I want all 5 stars and a tiara or I'm not playing!!! :p

Offline GratefulDad

  • Dead Head
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1364
  • Uncle Sam wants you to be a Shaman!!
    • View Profile
Re: 43mg/kg dose
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2010, 04:05:44 PM »
Right on, but yeah, 1 gram of the TA wouldn't have been enough to evoke much in me.  I was saying, being clean, 4-5 grams would probably get me there, unless the TA is much stronger than it was about a year ago.  I also wouldn't eat 4 grams at a festival, and know how iboga works for me.  I am wondering, do the folks in Gabon who work with Iboga regularly use it more than once or twice in flood doses?  Do the Nganga's use it more often than other tribe members?  Perhaps one of these times I'll eat enough and won't need to go back.  Hell, that'd be fine with me, but I do enjoy it.

Yeah, I can eat 4 grams of bark for a nice buzz, but the ataxia doesn't really get to me that much.  I can take a gram of 50% TA and after about an hour or two I am use to the buzz and can have a wonderful day.  I had taken half a gram of TA a day or two before I ate the gram.  I ate 2 grams of bark two days ago, without having taken any for a month or so probably, and I felt it, but didn't get any trails, or ataxia.  I could feel the buzz, slight head change, but not like 4 grams will do.  From all accounts I have received, this bark is pretty good quality.  I have heard about some even better, but it's about 5 times as much.  I'd rather eat an extra gram than pay way more..  Perhaps on the best bark around 2 grams would give me the buzz that four does of this stuff, I can't say, but still, 300 mgs of TA, or a gram of bark, won't do hardly anything to me.  Hell, you guys find whatever you think is the best you've got, and I'll come hang out with you and take it, and we'll see how much it takes me.  Hell, show me up!!  Kick my ass with some super bark or TA!!  I dare ya, lol!!
GratefulDad

"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason."

Offline Psychenaut

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: 43mg/kg dose
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2010, 04:19:56 PM »
yeah yeah.. you just want the goods :P  Some people just have a higher threshold for it's effects but they are in the minority.  When a good dose of iboga get's into you far enough it demands your attention!  When you are clear you can also handle much higher doses of it.

From my limited understanding of how it is used by the Bwiti, the Nganga's do "flood" many times in their lives but for the general members it's typically a once in a life time experience though they eat small doses of rootbark daily sometimes and during new initiations the whole tribe takes a substantial booster dose. 

Typically what I do for myself and it works very well is to take 5 to 6 grams of rootbark one day (which will floor me when I need it) and then fallow that by 600mg to 1g of rootbark every morning for a week or so after.. by the end of that period I'm feeling fluid and open.
I want all 5 stars and a tiara or I'm not playing!!! :p

Offline GratefulDad

  • Dead Head
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1364
  • Uncle Sam wants you to be a Shaman!!
    • View Profile
Re: 43mg/kg dose
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2010, 04:36:03 PM »
Yeah, see, I am just not the norm.  But I am also not crazy out of control on iboga.  I normally do like 4 grams of bark for 4-5 days in a row, then I quit.  I don't do it on any regular schedule, but when I feel like it.  I kind of enjoy waking up and going to sleep tripping.  Seeing the little white zig-zagged lines around everything.  Tracers and trails, especially in the evening, and that psychedelic glow.
GratefulDad

"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason."

Offline Calaquendi

  • cosmic elf
  • Donating Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1600
    • View Profile
Re: 43mg/kg dose
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2010, 11:38:38 AM »
Quote
On second thought, it has been probably almost a year since that TA was purchased and months since I ate it...

This is an interesting point: I have read that iboga extracts have a tendency to 'turn into something else'. Material that has been shelved for extended periods, stored improperly or extracted in a careless manner - it seems the iboga alkaloids like to oxidize and they can become inactive, or worse - something altogether 'different'. I can't find the damned resource to point to here, but I know I have heard of this from a few different sources.

Everything has a shelf life, and if I am not mistaken, a freebase will hold its integrity longer than a comparable salted form (with the possible exception of purified ibogaine hydrochloride). This information concerns mainly total alkaloid extractions of ibogaine. The ibogoids in the extract: ibogaine, ibogaline, ibogamine, nor-ibogaine, voacangine, tabernanthine - these purportedly oxidize easily and will have different qualities than the original alks. I am not sure how long it is safe to store an extract. Maybe you guys can help me find some info here? Also, a 'professional grade' extract will keep longer than something you whipped up in the kitchen, I am speaking most directly about the tek me and Achtwan wrote : the acetic acid (vinegar) DIY method. This must be used immediately, within a week or two is my guess. The extracts will break down and potency will be lost, affecting dosing measurements and possibly even making someone sick. Further info forthcoming on this important topic.

A good example of this type of action is shown with kratom - the main constituent mitragynine is very close in structure to voacangine. I've recently come about information new to me concerning kratom: it seems that 'stale' plant materials and/or improperly prepared extracts of kratom like to oxidize and do so easily. This changes the main alkaloid from mitragynine to mitragynine-pseudoindoxyl which has markedly different pharmacological action(s)

An excerpt from a chemistry forum: Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl is not the same as mitragynine. It is the result of an oxidation process very common in the extraction of ibogoids by indelicate chemists.
Link: http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2118
Wiki on mitragynine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragynine

You can see that the action of the oxidized component differs from that of its counterpart - so that while retaining some basic characteristics (binding to opiate receptors, analgesia) it has qualitative differences which may affect dosing and indeed would be felt by whoever takes the compound. This 'new' alkaloid, oxidized from mitragynine still binds to opiate receptors, but does so in a limited fashion compared to the original alkaloid. M.pseudoindoxyl binds almost exclusively to only the delta receptors, where its cousin (mitragynine) binds to the Mu as well as the Delta sites...from my reading this will affect the 'feel' of the experience - the Mu receptors are responsible for the pleasure sensations associated with an opioid agonist, while the delta receptors still provide analgesia and affect tolerance but will not produce as much euphoria - maybe a recipe for an overdose? If someone is trying to use material to get high and they come across something which has been oxidized - there's no way to tell until you have taken it, unless someone has a GC/MS in their basement and runs everything through it before they try it out. This kind of scenario can result in somebody trying to 'recover' the 'lost' sensation of euphoria and accidentally overdoing it.

I think that this kratom phenomenon is a good example, we deal with a lot of plant chemistry here and many of us do these things on our own, with little knowledge of true organic chemistry, it is prudent to know that things like this can happen, especially with plant materials. Always know your sources and if something has been shelved for a while, I'd say over 90 days, take extra care with it.

If you're dealing with raw plant stuffs and plan to make your own extracts or tinctures, ask the vendor what the source of the material is, find out as much as you can - the % of alks in the bark for example. Situations like this are probably not super-common, but it is good to know what we're doing in any case. Be informed and make educated choices.

Sorry for the long post but GD reminded me of this when I read his post about having taken something which was stored a while. It seems the iboga extracts may have a shorter shelf life than some other things.
" I am you and what I see is me..."

Offline GratefulDad

  • Dead Head
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1364
  • Uncle Sam wants you to be a Shaman!!
    • View Profile
Re: 43mg/kg dose
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2010, 12:13:44 PM »
Well, that is a good post, but a few points.  I believe the salts are actually more stable than freebases, for iboga alkaloids.  Also, that extract wasn't stored for a long time, but I got it early this year from someone who had purchased it about a month or so earlier.  It was stored in a lightproof baggie, and when I got it, I kept it sealed until I used it.  It wasn't kept for very long.  It had just been months since I got it and used it.  I might have had it around for a month or so.  So at best, it was maybe 3 months old when I used it.  So, while it may have degraded a bit, I don't think it could have degraded that much.  I doubt IW is whipping up batches fresh for each customer, so some bit of storage is probably done.  I have read about indra extract made many years ago, still being around and effective, so I wouldn't be too quick to think it's degraded.  Seriously, I think breaking open my head is just a lot more difficult than the majority of the people who try this medicine..
GratefulDad

"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason."

RavAv

  • Guest
Re: 43mg/kg dose
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2010, 12:40:54 PM »
the belgium indra extract is 29 years old
and still
flooding
 ;)

Offline Calaquendi

  • cosmic elf
  • Donating Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1600
    • View Profile
Re: 43mg/kg dose
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2010, 02:18:41 PM »
Quote
Seriously, I think breaking open my head is just a lot more difficult than the majority of the people who try this medicine..

Oh yes, I can attest that you're a psychedelic hard-head  :D And I know that what Av says about old batches of Indra is correct. It's just that your post reminded me of something I had read regarding certain iboga extracts and their 'propensity' for degradation...for the life of me I can't find the damned source in my bookmarks - but now I've made it a mission to corroborate this info. I know that you know what your doing, and that you store your goods appropriately, but looking over your post jarred my memory and made me think of this stuff. Now come to think of it, I think that I gleaned this information in a response to my posting Achtwan's vinegar tek on another forum, last year. It seems that 'homemade' extracts are the ones with questionable shelf lives. In particular the acetic acid one. I'll find what I'm looking for (probably by the time this thread dies lol) and post it here as soon as I do.

Maybe it was something on Mindvox - it could have been something Chris Jenks said - though I am not certain yet...it was just a 'heads-up' on kitchen type extractions and to use them in a timely manner because they can go bad quick. Apparently and especially the iboga alkaloids like to do similar to what mitragynine does and become 'something else'. Probably like nnDMT turning into DMT n-oxide? I hate to post theory without sourcing something but I know this is something I have come across and wanted to put this out there, if for no other reason, than to alert potential DIY'ers to use their product within a reasonable amount of time after they pull it.

The more I think about this the more it seems this was suggested to me in response to that acetic acid tek - not to extract the rootbark until I was prepared to use it, and that it would break down rather quickly so it was best to keep it in 'plant form' and not store the homemade TA for extended periods.

I'll digress here and stop the off topic discussion, whenever I locate what I seem to have lost I'll put it in another thread, this would be a good discussion to have anyways. Thanks for the responses guys, and if y'all have any info regarding this I'd like to be enlightened!
" I am you and what I see is me..."

Offline GratefulDad

  • Dead Head
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1364
  • Uncle Sam wants you to be a Shaman!!
    • View Profile
Re: 43mg/kg dose
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2010, 04:36:47 PM »
What you are talking about, perhaps, is where Jenks said that alkaloids break down quickly in solution.  I mentioned it in another thread on this forum, and I believe Nobu gave the list of which order they broke down in, fastest to slowest.  I can't find it right now, but I imagine that's what you're referring to.  The alkaloids oxidized quickly in certain solutions.  I believe naphtha and acetone were pretty quick..  I can't remember the precise order, perhaps Nobu remembers?

Here is a link that contains a post by Nobu that explains how his extracts worked and how they broke down: http://iboga.tribe.net/thread/57c1d82c-c6f6-42e3-8a2c-e8ebc07e4da6

Excerpt:
Quote
I extracted with methanol and dried' the extract kicked my ass' I placed it in a container and left it for 3 weeks' it touched me' but no visions'
I extracted with methanol and added acetic acid and dried' the extract floored me and five other folks' and is still viable 4 months later'
I extracted with methanol and added HCL acid and dried' the extract blasted me for 60 hours and is still viable 5 months later'
I extracted with acetic acid and added ammonia' washed the resultant sludge in pure water' left it to dry in a cupboard' this extract died inside of 5 weeks'
I extracted with acetic acid and added ammonia' washed the resultant sludge then added HCL acid' this extract worked but lacked punch from the Ibogaine'
I extracted with pure water and HCL acid at ph 3' cooked gently on a low heat for 3 hours' vacum filtered twice' then ph regulated and evaporated' powerful extract'

So after reading the Merc index and playing about for nearly 3 years'

150 degrees is your limit on heat' this si why I tell folks to keep it as cool as possible' (Boiling would no hurt it until you got to drying stage' then best go easy )

Here is Nobu's post on this forum about the  instability in solvents and the order in which they break down slowest to fastest..  http://eboka.info/index.php?topic=7.msg640#msg640

Quote
Water' Methanol' ethanol' acetone'(Ibogaine oxidises quickly in acetone) Napths'(of which destroy the moles quite quickly)

Bliss'

Nobu +

Unless in an acid salt state' Ibogaine is practicaly insoluble in water'

« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 04:54:01 PM by GratefulDad »
GratefulDad

"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason."

Offline ryu

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 91
    • View Profile
Re: 43mg/kg dose
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2010, 05:36:33 AM »
I am having a flood dose on Saturday and have purchased 4gms of IW TA. I am 90kg and 6ft.

Is 4 grams too much or just right for my weight?

Ryu :)

Offline x

  • Donating Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
Re: 43mg/kg dose
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2010, 11:27:34 AM »
An addiction interruption flood dose is usually 15-24mg/kg. Say 20. Okay, so you are shooting for 20mg/kg give or take depending on many factors.

Multiply your weight in kg by 20. That's 1800mg, right? Or 1.8g.

If the TA (PTA) you have is 65% active alkaloids, that's about 650mg per g. How many g will you need to hit 1800mg active alkaloids? Just under three, by my calculations.

Sara at IW has been doing this a long time. You can talk to her/Michelle about dosing. Do your research, know your medicine, be prepared.

My opinion is merely that, an opinion.

Love.

Offline Ariman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: 43mg/kg dose
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2010, 11:17:27 PM »
Hi!

Im new at this forum, and im not very good at English but i guess you can understand me anyway.
After i have read the posts i feel i have to share some of my own experience with Ibogaine TA.

I just have to agree with GreatfulDad, the dosage some of you guys are talking about would not get me anywhere.

This summer i went to a private treatment-center and was given 4grams of TA, that came from a well known source. 
After a while i felt how it started to kick in, but after aprox one or two hours i was still pretty much aware what was going on and i did not reach the levels i had expected,
i experienced some small visions and strange thoughts in my mind but the visions was like watching a movie with halv of the pixels gone.
I thought about this for a while and when i didn't got any further i wanted some more, i really wanted to work with my addiction since i had traveled so far to do this so i asked the guy for a bigger dose and he gave me additionally 1 grams with a total of 5grams. 

O yeah!  The iboga took me away on an journey and now i had some stronger visions during the "session".
The visions are maybe not so important but i felt it just wasn't enough with the first dosage, and these pictures and inner conversations i had later on just confirmed it, it felt right.

I don't know why but i guess my body needed that much, he told me 5grams was a strong dosage so i doubt that 4grams is way to much for most of the iboga users.
I also have to mention that i was of the methadone for 6months before i did this.
My body weight is 75Kg.  And yes, i can use higher amounts of drugs compared to many of my friends but not all of them, Ayahuasca is the same for me when i compare the dosage to others, i need a bit more, but still, im a human after all, so 4grams, come on!

The following night i slept around 16hours straight on, but with absolutely no sleep the night before during the flight i really needed that, and of course the iboga forced me to relax. Two days after i was in a somewhat good condition so i went down to the market to get some fresh air and eat because i was so hungry, the following night i used additionally 3grams of the rootbark instead of TA and it was a success. 
After 3 days my body was in the same condition as when i arrived and i took the flight back home with a great experience together with the iboga spirit.

Please!  Dont tell me the Ta was a bad quality batch.   :)

4grams is probably a lot for some people and i don't want to recommend higher than that if you dont know your body, but i still cant agree with the low dosage you are talking about.  A full flood is the way to go, thats my opinion and next week im doing a second journey with 4grams of TA witch i got a couple a weeks ago, i also have 1gram of the HCL so maybe im going to take just a small amount of that as well. 

And you guys who hasn't done this yet, be careful!  start small and biuld it up as many other says.

Wish you all a wery pleasant new year's eve and a lot of laughter and happiness inside!  Iboga and zazen is the way to go 8)


/ Ariman



« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 11:32:23 PM by Ariman »

Offline roy d

  • Banzi
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 832
  • Just do the best ya can
    • View Profile
Re: 43mg/kg dose
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2010, 07:22:34 AM »

Hi Airman,

Welcome to the forum.  That was a nice story that you posted, alls well that ends well.  When they give you more Ibo when you ask for it that tells ya it's a good clinic.  I am glad you got what you wanted and hope it works forever.

 Roy

Offline Calaquendi

  • cosmic elf
  • Donating Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1600
    • View Profile
Re: 43mg/kg dose
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2011, 04:14:14 PM »
Welcome Ariman, thanks for sharing. Yes indeed we are all different in our needs. I think the lower level dosages you are referring to (here) are more common than than doses folks like you, GD and others use - simply because most of the people I know of personally just don't require those bigger amounts. When it comes down to it, the mg/kg dosing for a full on flood usually hangs between 18-25mg/kg. I think that's 'normal'...plus, dealing with extracts can be tricky - each batch being different. I do not think you got a 'bad batch' at all, I think you knew what you were doing, knew what you wanted/needed, and went for it. I say congratulations on a successful journey! People like to err on the side of caution with this material, more so than other stuff - because of the limited empirical data available and the confusion about the mortality rate (ostensibly) associated with iboga/ibogaine...interesting to me is that none of the deaths I have read or heard about - where iboga or ibogaine was considered as a potential contributing factor - came from overdoses. This is no small matter. It seems to suggest other factors rather than dose alone are what can make this dangerous for some people. On the whole I think it is safe material, and I agree with people being extra cautious with it. Welcome to the board and thanks for being here!
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 04:16:25 PM by Calaquendi »
" I am you and what I see is me..."