Author Topic: LDN: Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy  (Read 31836 times)

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Offline roy d

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Re: LDN: Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2010, 01:46:19 PM »

Hi Eon,

Come on, MAOIs are a terrible thing to give somebody.  It clashes with so many other drugs.  In a way does it act like a SSRI, I don't know but there are sever warnings that come with it and it clashes with many a drugs.  I am through taking antidepressants and I have not been depressed in the last several years.  Several of the SSRI type meds cause weight gain and a person had a pic and was at a home of some kind nodded out and many pounds heaver.   It's like they down the hell out of ya.  When you try a type of drug and every single time it causes sever problems it is time to quit.  Sometimes you got to make the call yourself.  But some people are helped by it.

Best,

 Roy

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: LDN: Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2010, 05:30:58 PM »

Come on, MAOIs are a terrible thing to give somebody.


Come on, Roy, do you think I would recommend them if I thought that?  I have done a fair amount of research on the subject and used 5 of them, some for many years.  Two of the ones I have tried are harmaline and harmine, both components of ayahuasca.  MAOI effects are very different from SSRIs & SNRIs  --  and for me, MUCH better.

Read about McKenna & Grobes studies of regular ayahuasca users in Brazil, if you don't believe me.

That said, I would NOT recommend that those without the requisite awareness use them  --  the danger of someone killing themselves by eating a large amount of tyramine is remote but real.  I only sent some to Cal because I could explain the dietary and drug restrictions to him, and I knew that he was already knowledgeable of those restrictions where ayahuasca is concerned.

That's why I suggested them to you, Roy.  I have the perception that you have the awareness and capability to use them safely.  Heck, if figured Roy and I despise SSRIs, MAOIs worked for me, they might work for Roy, too.

While clinical depression is not the same as CFS, they two do share a number of common symptoms.  Just because those symptoms weren't caused by severe potty training when just a wee laddie does not mean that they won't be relieved by an MAOI.

~et
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 05:33:07 PM by Eon T McKnight »

Offline GratefulDad

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Re: LDN: Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2010, 06:21:31 PM »
I am fairly certain harmala alkaloids are very safe, and even therapeutic.  There are studies about the shaman who use it regularly, and they tend to have a better sense of well being and higher serotonin levels than the rest of the population, so if ya need em, or might, they seem like a natural and healthy alternative to the pharmaceutical crap they hand out all the time..
GratefulDad

"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason."

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: LDN: Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2010, 06:51:12 PM »
GDad's right about higher serotonin levels and decreased levels of depression (an increased sense of well being) as measured by psychological tests.

Harmine was also an Rx for Parkinson's for a while.  (I'm guessing you know Parkinson's involves death of dopaminergic neurons.)  But, alas, as a natural substance, it cannot be patented.      :(
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 06:52:55 PM by Eon T McKnight »

Offline Calaquendi

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Re: LDN: Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2010, 11:18:46 AM »
Interesting ideas Eon...the low dose naltrexone sounds like it may hold some promise. I had always thought Naloxone and Naltrexone were identical, but not so. They are both antagonists but differ in potency among other things.  They put Naloxone with Buprenorphine to make Suboxone - which is actually good medicine - if you don't mind having to take a pill everyday for the rest of your life or you'll be sick as shit.

Combing through this thread a bit, I see y'all talking about hormones quite a bit. They're putting these commercials on TV geared towards middle aged men - "ask your doctor if its low T" I'm guessing testosterone (not low testicles? ;D) Anyway, what are some ways to raise our endogenous levels if we are found to be on the low side?
I have known guys to take transdermal or IM testosterone and I wouldn't go that route unless totally absolutely necessary. I mean taking the exogenous hormones directly. I see where it is touted as beoing able to help with things lkike fatigue and sex drive...all of these syptoms people with PAWS will or can experience to varying degrees. For myself, I was a junkie for so long, it is no wonder some of the 'symptoms' still vex me occasionally. I get bouts of ugly fatigue sometimes, but I'm trying to push through that stuff. I figure if I survive and don't kill anyone else in the next 12 months I'll be well on my way to true happiness. Good thread.
" I am you and what I see is me..."

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: LDN: Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2010, 05:39:17 PM »
Yessir, Mr. Quendi, opiates have been found to decrease testosterone levels.  Like using insulin, use of testosterone can have problematic side effects.

Can LDN reverse low testosterone levels induced by opiate use?  It appears so...

Check this out:


Naltrexone effects on male sexual behavior, corticosterone, and testosterone in stressed male rats

S. Retana-Márqueza, , , H. Bonilla-Jaimea, G. Vázquez-Palaciosa and R. Martínez-Garcíab

aDepartment of Biology of Reproduction, Universidad Autonoma Metropolitana-Iztapalapa, San Rafael Atlixco 186, Mexico City C.P. 09340, Mexico

bWaters, S.A. de C.V. Subsidiary in Mexico of Waters Corporation, Adolfo Prieto, 1655, Mexico City C.P. 03100, Mexico

Abstract

Chronic physical or psychological stress disrupts male reproductive function. Studies in our laboratory have shown that stress by immersion in cold water (ICW) and by electrical foot shocks (EFS) has inhibitory effects on male sexual behavior; these effects do not seem to be mediated by an increase in corticosterone, nor by a decrease in testosterone. On the other hand, it is known that endogenous opioids are released in the brain in response to these same stressors; consequently, they could be participating in the impairment of sexual behavior, as well as in the changes in corticosterone and testosterone caused by stress. The aim of this study was to analyze the effects of the opioid antagonist naltrexone (NTX) on male sexual behavior, corticosterone, and testosterone in both stressed sexually experienced and naive male rats. Sexually experienced adult male rats were assigned to one of the following groups (n = 10 each): 1) control group, males without sexual evaluation; 2) control group, rats injected ip with saline, non-stressed; 3) control group, rats injected with NTX (3 mg/kg) non-stressed; 4) rats injected ip with saline, and stressed by EFS; 5) rats injected ip with NTX (1.5 mg/kg) and stressed by EFS; 6) rats injected ip with saline and stressed by ICW; 7) rats injected ip with NTX (1.5 mg/kg) and stressed by ICW; 8) rats injected ip with NTX (3 mg/kg) and stressed by ICW. Naive males were assigned to the same control groups but only stressed by ICW and the NTX dose used was 3 mg/kg. Injections were given 30 min before stress sessions. Stress was applied on 20 consecutive days. Male sexual behavior was assessed 15 min after EFS or 30 min after ICW, on days 1, 4, 8, 12, 15, and 20. Trunk blood was collected at the end of the experiments on day 20 of stress. Corticosterone and testosterone were evaluated by HPLC.

Mount, intromission and ejaculation latencies were longer in control saline naive males compared to control saline sexually experienced males on the first day. NTX administration to control naive males caused a decrease in mount, intromission, and ejaculation latencies, as well as an increase in ejaculatory frequency/30 min, compared to control-saline only on day 1. Stressed naive males showed higher mount, intromission and ejaculation latencies, compared to control and stressed sexually experienced males, as well as comparable increase in corticosterone and decrease in testosterone plasma levels. NTX administration before exposure to stress prevented the modifications caused by stress in sexual parameters. Sexual behavior in control sexually-active males injected with saline or NTX was not modified. Saline stressed males showed the previously reported alterations in sexual behavior, as well as an increase in corticosterone and a decrease in testosterone plasma levels. Stressed males injected with NTX before exposure to stress showed no alterations in male sexual behavior. NTX in control non-stressed males did not modify corticosterone plasma levels, but did cause a significant increase in plasma testosterone. The increase in corticosterone and the decrease in testosterone due to stress, were attenuated with the opioid antagonist, both in naive and sexually experienced males. Prevention of ICW stress effects was more effective with higher doses of NTX (3 mg/kg). These data suggest that endogenous opioids could be participating in the effects caused by stress on male sexual behavior, corticosterone, and testosterone.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T0P-4TW14TN-1&_user=10&_coverDate=02%2F16%2F2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1444354002&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=733ab3ce8afb8102740bd78cd6ceed64&searchtype=a

Cal, have you checked your mount, intromission and ejaculation latencies lately? (Harharhar!)

~eon
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 05:41:29 PM by Eon T McKnight »

Offline Calaquendi

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Re: LDN: Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2010, 07:45:07 PM »
Quote
Cal, have you checked your mount, intromission and ejaculation latencies lately? (Harharhar!)

LOL - it seems that all systems are "go", thanks for your concern.  ;D

Good information Igor!
" I am you and what I see is me..."

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: LDN: Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2010, 02:11:41 PM »
Good to hear, my friend.

Seems as though my libido (and a few other things) could use a little perking up, lately.  That said, I am reaching the end of my rope regarding dependence upon ANYTHING!

I just do not want to have to rely on anything to be happy, healthy and sane.

Naltrexone appears to be a beast of a different color, though.  Causing the body to produce higher levels of endorphins and enkaphalins by temporarily blocking opiate receptors is a new paradigm.  For someone like me who is and can (theoretically) stay clean, the course of LDN treatment should not be more than 60 days.  Being used only at night, LDN is NOT something one could take to instantly feel good.  Escalating the dose would be unpleasant because the blockage of opiate receptors is decidedly UNpleasant.  I like this idea!

I took the plunge and just bought 10 50mg Naltrexone tablets for $28 at the following on-line pharmacy:

     http://www.unitedpharmacies.com/customer/product.php?productid=758

United Pharmacies has proved to be honest and reliable.  That is where I purchase moclobemide, too.  I also purchased another 100 moclobemide tablets today to get me through the LDN treatment.  I sincerely hope this is my last purchase from United!

An interesting thing found on the web re: LDN is that there is a doc that uses a 50 day course of LDN to reverse SSRI 'poop-out'.  Patients who were initially helped by SSRIs but found the effectiveness to diminish over time were helped by LDN through the restoration of positive SSRI effects.

Having experienced 'refractory depression' in which SSRI/SNRIs only worked for a little while (and even then with uncomfortable side effects), I am very interested in seeing if LDN can have benefit for me.  It's good to know I won't be using it forever.

Since 50 * 10 = 500mg and the maximum dose for LDN is 4.5mg, $28 will get me 111 doses at $0.25 each.  Twenty-five cents per day!  Shit mon, that be way better that copping oxys on the street corner!

~et
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 02:23:36 PM by Eon T McKnight »

Offline sassyfras

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Re: LDN: Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2010, 03:36:54 PM »
I don't remember where I read this, it might even have been in here, but apparently long term use of ssris/snris causes severely lowered dopamine production...that made sense to me, seeing how lousy so many long term users of those AD's feel. Good to know there are a few doctors around who keep up with some of the discoveries being made & are treating long term ssri/snri users with LDN.

I'm looking forward to hearing about your experience with LDN, Eon...in the few reports I've read about, the people felt better very quickly after beginning LDN, within a day or two. I'm hoping to start a regimen of "ULDN", or ultra low dose naltrexone very soon too. With ULDN you take only 1mg naltrexone at night instead of the 3 - 4mg with LDN, & this tiny amount supposedly helps a great deal with lowering the tolerance of those who are still on opiates.

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: LDN: Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2010, 04:39:02 PM »

...in the few reports I've read about, the people felt better very quickly after beginning LDN, within a day or two.


Now I'm REALLY glad I ordered some nal!  I've been too overwhelmed with my current situation to give the reports more than a cursory glance.  I recently decided to move to Denver and had expected my mood to turn bright and positive overnight.  While the decision did help, now I find myself overwhelmed by the huge chore of leaving my house (no longer 'my home') of 20 years.

Being confident and capable is the opposite of being overwhelmed  --  I used to feel confident and capable on opies, until they stopped working.  I am really hoping that LDN will get my enkephalin & endorphin levels up to where they should be!

~et

Offline Calaquendi

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Re: LDN: Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2010, 05:30:14 PM »
Quote
I used to feel confident and capable on opies, until they stopped working.

Boy do I feel that! Those dirty bastards will turn on eventually...what a rip off! Great thread Eon. I know you do not want to be 'on' anything, and I think that is commendable. You may very well be on to something here though with this LDN thing, however. It sounds, at least so far, like it might be really suitable for your situation, and others (myself included) will certainly  want to know how it is working for you.

I can imagine you must be nervous about the move to Denver my friend, moving from one's home of many years is always stressful and emotional. But I know you have given this a good amount of thought and I hope it will be everything you want it to be - you deserve to be happy.

BTW - I keep seeing these commercials on TV for 'low T'....forgive me if we've already broached the subject, i haven't re read this entire thread, but is this something you have considered or tested for? It could potentially explain some of the symptoms you feel.
" I am you and what I see is me..."

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: LDN: Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2010, 02:00:48 AM »

BTW - I keep seeing these commercials on TV for 'low T'....forgive me if we've already broached the subject, i haven't re read this entire thread, but is this something you have considered or tested for? It could potentially explain some of the symptoms you feel.


Getting tested for hormone levels is something only people with good health insurance or gobs of $$$s do in our fine, humane Amerikkan nation.  So I tried testosterone therapy on my own and decided that low T was not my problem.  The T helped my energy levels somewhat but did nothing for depression and anxiety.  LDN sounds like a much better way to increase T without side effects.

~et

PS  --  Friend Cal, have you ever considered using ibo to kick your TV habit ? ? ?   (snicker)  ~e

Offline koko

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Re: LDN: Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2010, 10:40:32 AM »
since i am at that age,i had my hormones saliva tested,each one was $40,it was worth it to help thru menopause.i dont have health insurance either.i was even on testosterone for a while,a girl dose tho,it was very helpful.if i ever get involved again in a relationship,i'll be back on most of the bio-identicals-koko

Offline koko

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Re: LDN: Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2010, 10:51:02 AM »
hey yall,read a little more of this thread.well,i still contend that naltexone & ibogaine dont mix,but since there are some experimenting,we shall see-koko

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: LDN: Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2010, 12:50:32 PM »

i still contend that naltexone & ibogaine dont mix


Hi koko!

I am very interested in hearing the reasoning behind your statement.

Combining Naltrexone, LDN or UDLN during a flood would probably not be a good thing  --  especially for someone detoxing from opiates.

I haven't really considered LDN/UDLN during microdosing, but since the nal would be gone by morning, it might be OK.  Of course, nor-ibogaine does build in the system when ibo is used daily.

LDN, however, might be of value post-ibo.  It would probably be good to wait at least a week or two after a flood before starting LDN, so that the phase of acute WD has ended.  One would want to let ibo do its thing unhindered, I believe.

Since LDN functions by temporarily blocking opiate receptors, it may also block any nor-ibogaine, other metabolites or downstream transmitters that bind to those receptors.  If that is indeed the case, then the endorphin enkephalin production will still be stimulated.

Along with counseling, nutrition and exercise, LDN could be a totally awesome thing post-flood for opiate and alcohol addicts.  It could prevent relapse once the ibo-glow has faded.  That is what has got my interest up.

Being under a whole lot of internal and external stress, just like the rats described in the abstract above, and I am hoping that LDN will counter the effects of that stress and help me be healthy and functional.

~et