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Eboka General => Eboka Talk => Topic started by: lightswitchedon on March 24, 2012, 10:54:06 AM

Title: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: lightswitchedon on March 24, 2012, 10:54:06 AM
I have read numerous times that those of us on suboxone need to discontinue use several weeks prior to taking the flood dose.  My plan was to transistion to kratom for 3 weeks.  At that time I would estimate my sub dose to be .5mg, however I am quite certain that if I were to just ween off altogether then I would not be getting out of bed to go to work.  I need to do something for those 3 weeks and luckily I have several months to discuss and prepare for it.  Can someone let me know what the best thing to do would be?  I am not opposed to using narcotic pain meds as I am confident that I will follow through as planned, but I'm not sure how I would even get those meds.
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: Calaquendi on March 24, 2012, 11:36:58 AM
A low dose of a short acting opiate would be ideal - something like hydrocodone, if you could find some and keep the dose reasonable, for me - I would have to have someone else dole them out or I would do all of them in one go.

Another option is poppy pods - they contain morphine and codeine (neither of which stand a chance against Iboga) and are pretty cheap and easy to procure.

Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: lightswitchedon on March 24, 2012, 03:30:58 PM
Thanks for the reply.  Based on a couple ppl reccommending, I will probably go the pods route for about 10 days.  It would be nice to know what to expect with that.
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: GratefulDad on March 24, 2012, 04:41:28 PM
I would do the pods for closer to 3-4 weeks, since you want to really train your endorphin system to get used to the cycle of the short acting opiate, while allowing all the metabolites of the suboxone to work their way out of the receptors. 

When switching to pods you should start off with a determined dose and wait for an hour to see how it's working, then up the dose in increments, waiting an hour between each upgrade, until you find the working dose that makes you feel okay, but not high.  Then you can lower it by a few grams every 3-5 days, until you aren't comfortable, then stick to the dose that just gets you by.  For someone with no tolerance, 5-10 grams of powdered pod material (from my source) is where they begin to get the analgesic/euphoric effects.  This obviously jumps up a fair bit when someone has a tolerance.

You can slowly reduce your pod dose while planning for your iboga flood, and if you aren't using the pods to get high, you can really make it easier on yourself to step down very low.  I find that a minimal dose of pods is effective for 12 hours, so dosing twice a day on your minimal dose should keep you fine all day and night.  I have even done a dose that made me feel good for 24 hours, but then I do wake up feeling the beginning of withdrawal, while splitting that dose in half and doing them 12 hours apart keeps me more even, and less of the up and down feeling occurs.
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: Calaquendi on March 24, 2012, 05:05:37 PM
^^^^ yeah ^^^^
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: digital_phreedom on March 25, 2012, 02:38:07 AM
^^^^

^^^^
double yeah
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: evolutionofone on April 19, 2012, 12:32:26 AM
Lightswitched on, I just noticed this after I responded in another my thread you posted in. I haven't been on here for a while. Anyway I came off a year of sub & was on short acting opiates for two weeks before my flood & it was not enough, not at all. You need way more than 10 days of SAO.  I had a hard time functioning the first two months, extreme lethargy & no desire to do anything. First month was the worst. I could never have held a job in that period.  Look at it this way, the longer you're on SAO before you flood, the less you suffer. Imo, at least a month, if I could do it again I would have gone 2 months at least if not more.
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: lightswitchedon on April 20, 2012, 11:04:26 PM
My plan for now -

Next Friday I am going to go without sub other than my morning dose of .125mg.  Being as it acts similar to a SAO at these low doses, I will be feeling a good bit of withdrawal by Friday evening.  I know this from past experience.  Friday evening I am going to slowly up my pod intake until I feel good and high.  By Saturday morning I will see where things stand and take more if necessary....just enough to hold.  I will attempt to do this throughout the weekend right up until Sunday night all the while evaluating how I feel and whether or not the sub withdrawal is masked.

I have already tried pods to no avail, however I may not have taken enough and I didn't really give it a chance.  What I found was my physical withdrawal symptoms subsided, but my anxiety and depression was ever growing.  Suboxone seems to act as a powerful antidepressant.  Morphine and codeine never took the edge off depression and that's what pods essentially break down to if I am not mistaken.

If this fails, I am going to have to go the norco or percocet route.  I know that this will work, although it may be like sticking my hand in the fire and asking not to get burned.  The only thing that I have going for me is the fact that I am very serious about the goal here.  I haven't spent 3 years working hard putting my life back together to fuck it all up.  I certainly won't do all this without help and support from friends and the good folks on this forum. 

My flood will take place around July 1st.  Maybe I am trying to switch to SAOs too soon, however I really don't want to leave anything to chance.  I have been on subs for almost 4 years and feel that this is some powerful stuff in ways altogether different from other opiates, and I was on an extremely high dose of methadone before the sub.  Sub may not be liquid handcuffs, but it sure as hell is a chemical prison.

I would very much appreciate feedback from those well versed in these matters.
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: GratefulDad on April 23, 2012, 09:52:34 AM
Pods will work if you find the right dose and give 'em a chance, especially if you have success with oxycodone (in percocet)..  It may take you  20-30+ grams of pods to find where it works well for you, but they definitely will...  They are also much easier to control than oxycodone (or other SAO pills) or heroin, IME...
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: Calaquendi on April 27, 2012, 07:48:21 PM
I do not think you are switching to SAOs too soon - I don't think there IS a too soon for that. The longer you are away from long half life, synthetic opioids, the better. Your treatment will go smoother and be less taxing on you physically - and the real gem is that your recovery time will be far less the more removed you are from crap like suboxone or methadone.

Really does make a big difference!

PS - you are correct about morphine/codeine (pods) not having the effect of mitigating depression: these drugs will not produce the euphoria that semi synthetics like oxycodone or hydrocodone would - so if you go looking for anything resembling 'high' from poppies, you'll likely end up with your head in the toilet urking your brains out. This is what happened to me. NO fun, morphine. I never liked that crap, and when I was actively using daily I would only use morphine if I could not get anything else. It only keeps you from getting sick, that's all. There will be some give-and-take with a roll over. If you can afford the money, and can control your dosing, hydrocodone/oxycodone are fine SAOs, but one reason that I like to suggest people use things like MS Contin (morphine) is precisely because there isn't any 'fun' about it. It gets you geared up for when you aren't taking anything - after your flood...

In your current antediluvian state you may need to go to Norco then to pods, I do not know how severe your depression is. I know that horrible feeling though, it is scary. Scarier than anything. Just be mindful of juggling these different chemicals and take care of yourself. If you plan to flood in July you have time to work on things. Best to you!

Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: lightswitchedon on April 28, 2012, 12:36:59 AM
I have consumed 2 cups of poppy tea thus far, each prepared with 9g of pod material.  The first cup was drank at 8pm and the second at 10pm.  I feel somewhat alright other than the stomach discomfort.  Minor cramping and moderate bloating have persisted for the past few hours and it sucks.  Is this common and will it subside as I continue drinking the tea day after day?  Maybe the stomach / digestive system needs to adjust? 

I have been dealing with candida overgrowth issues ever since taking antibiotics (mistake) a few months ago.  The fact that I added honey to sweeten the tea may be part of the problem.  Maybe there is a better way to flavor this awful, bitter NASTY tea???
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: Calaquendi on April 28, 2012, 10:17:38 AM
Boy that shit IS nasty. I got to where it was actually better for me to grind a few pods down to powder in a coffee grinder and eat the powder mixed in applesauce or something which has its very own grossness properties. There's no way to get around how gross it is, at least I never found a way. Sorry   :D
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: lightswitchedon on April 28, 2012, 02:23:09 PM
So the thought of drinking poppy tea like EVER AGAIN sounds awful to me.  I suffered abdominal pains that were an 8 on the 10 scale right up until 11am this morning.  I puked like hell (green bile....sorry) and this did not even bring slight relief.  The opiods in the tea were effective since I slept much of the time even though the pain persisted.  It was a warm and fuzzy feeling, although I can't see myself getting off of my ass to go to work in that condition.  It would probably just take a few days of adjustment. 

Since poppy tea devistates my tummy I am wondering if the ground up material will do the same.  I have read that the thebaine alkaloid might be responsible.  Others have speculated that mold on the pods could be responsible.  I really don't know, but I do know that I am terrified of poppy tea now.  I am back comfortable on subs as of a couple hours ago.

I have also read that a putty substance containing all of the alks can be yielded via evaporation after straining the tea.  Maybe this is the answer??
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: Calaquendi on April 28, 2012, 03:17:00 PM
I am sure there are various extraction methods you could try. GD might be able to help shed some light he has poppy experience. I doubt those symptoms were from mold, sounds just like some of the typical discomfort that some people have with the material. Thebaine could be responsible as you stated. Not sure of a way around that, separating the opiate alks would require some equipment and sophistication that is beyond my skill set.

If it is possible to roll onto a prescription SAO perhaps this is your best bet. Best of luck in any case.
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: roy d on April 28, 2012, 05:29:08 PM

Hi Light,

There is a sweeter called Stevia that may help or may not.  Damn, your so close, ever think for a minute how someone will someday attempt the same thing your trying and not have the resources.  Your so low and yet it is too strong it sounds like something like out of 1984 - you will show up to work, you will obey, long live geroge bush, ect.

It is never too early to go on SAOs I take it is a matter of cash.  Is there any way you can go a Dr and get some opiates.  As Cal said the MS Contin are great for they do not get ya high and they last 12 hours.  I have found that regular 4-6 hour pain meds have you watching the close and waiting and waiting and waiting to take you pill and then ya take it and nothing happens, it's rough.  There are SAOs and pods or maybe, just maybe, you can go on methadone and take as little as possible for a month and save up money to get SAOs and then try the pods.  This is just an idea, not all that good of an idea but there are not that many options. 

You know I have heard a lot of people say they got down to 2mg and could go no lower and there are several people that got down to .5 and could go no lower.  I wonder what would happen if the cops got someone taking 16mg and put them in jail for 30 days,  I know what would happen they would let him suffer.  May I ask if the DR said that you can taper off nice and slow with no problem.  I know a Dr and they do not accept insurance for Sub, cash only, and they cost a lot at the drugstore.  I doubt the Sub Dr will give you any SAOs if your an addict for it is the law they can not give an addict dope to detox but can give Methadone, yeah I know.  If you got the money or insurance you may consider going Dr shopping and you may find a compassionate Dr to help you, hard but possible.

Best to ya Light,

  Roy
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: lightswitchedon on April 28, 2012, 07:09:39 PM
Roy,

I am one of those who got down to about .5 and can't go any lower without major discomfort, therefore it is time to get off of the stuff.  My doctor did tell me the last time I saw him that I was low enough to just stop taking it.  Other than that he was not a bad guy.  I had managed to stockpile a lot of sub and have not been to the doctor in 9 months.  It was cash only, but he didn't charge that much and my low dose didn't cost me that much at the pharmacy.

Money is not much of a problem so I just need to figure out how I am going to procure the SAOs.  I am thinking about going to a doctor and pretty much telling the truth.  If it doesn't work I will try a couple more times.  Then, if necessary, I will start asking around.  Who knows....I might just start asking around but I really don't want to start dealing with those shady characters (like my old self) again. 
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: roy d on April 29, 2012, 02:13:33 PM

Howdy Light,

If you go  back to the poppy tea do you think something like Gas-X or Bentyl will help?

Just a thought,

  Roy
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: digital_phreedom on April 30, 2012, 06:46:57 PM
I have had luck in the past just going to my doctor and being honest..

"So... I'm shooting a gram of heroin a day, and I REALLY want to quit.. But I HAVE to lower my tolerance gradually before I stop altogether."

--Ok, well I can put you on methadone or suboxone.

"Yeah, but I don't really want to get on that long-acting crap again.  I was hoping to use shorter acting chemicals, like hydrocodone or oxycodone"

--Well we can do that, but with your tolerance I'd have to start you off with at least 180 norcos a month, and that's about all I can do.


I told her that would be fine, and we worked out a dosing schedule.  Honesty can sometimes be the best policy.
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: lightswitchedon on April 30, 2012, 10:01:29 PM
I have had luck in the past just going to my doctor and being honest..

I can try it, however I don't have a doctor since I recently moved to my current location from another state.  I did see a guy several months back about some prostate issues and told him that I was on subs.  He said that I should get off the subs since they may be causing my prostate problems.  He was also quick to write a couple of scripts, but aren't they all?  I think I will go in there this week and tell him that I want to get off the subs and I only have a week off of work so I need to get the short acting opiate in my system long before I actually go cold turkey.  This is worth a try, however I really don't like the idea of wasting $100 (cost of appt), although the other procurement method would be far more expensive.

I really don't need to go into all the ibogaine stuff, lest the doc look at me like WTF are you talking about!  Beat it!
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: Calaquendi on May 01, 2012, 11:00:57 AM
Damn digi I can't believe you found a doctor to write you for those indications. You play golf with him or something?  :o

That sure as shit hasn't been  my experience - honesty only ever fucked me at the doctor's office...seems like one or the other of us had to be 'unethical'...heh.
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: GratefulDad on May 01, 2012, 05:03:21 PM
I did see a guy several months back about some prostate issues and told him that I was on subs.  He said that I should get off the subs since they may be causing my prostate problems.  He was also quick to write a couple of scripts, but aren't they all?  I think I will go in there this week and tell him that I want to get off the subs and I only have a week off of work so I need to get the short acting opiate in my system long before I actually go cold turkey.  This is worth a try, however I really don't like the idea of wasting $100 (cost of appt), although the other procurement method would be far more expensive.

I really don't need to go into all the ibogaine stuff, lest the doc look at me like WTF are you talking about!  Beat it!

One of the alkaloids in poppy pods is noscapine, which is a "off label" use for treating prostate cancer.  It is used as a cough suppressant, as well.  Check out noscapine.org ...  Noscapine has been known to prevent prostate cancer and even reduce cancerous tumors.  It can be prescribed by itself, but can be found in a short acting, all natural opiate mix, by just using poppy pods...
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: lightswitchedon on May 26, 2012, 07:36:27 PM
Just to provide an update to y'all, I am stable 8) on the pod flour.  This combined with some micro dosing goes a long way through the day providing a nice level feeling, at least for me.  I had some apprehension before making the switch, but I'm not sure why.  I simply toss the stuff in goat milk kefir and knock it back twice a day.  The sour taste of the (plain) kefir completely eliminates the filthy taste of pods.

This is another step in the right direction for me as I am now suboxone free and will not be looking back.  I now know after a couple of days off the subbies that they were causing me some stress, anxiety and restlessness.  It feels good to be able to chill out again.

Many thanks for the continued help and support from ppl on this forum.  35 days and counting and I am off to (CANADA) to flood! :)
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: evolutionofone on May 26, 2012, 11:58:52 PM
Very glad to hear you are finally off sub! Its a very good decision to be off sub & on pods over a month before your flood, that time off sub will certainly save you some suffering. From what you've told me about your healthy lifestyle, & plans after flooding, I think you will be very well prepared.  Much more so than I was.  If those adrenal fatigue supplements are truly effective, I think they might possibly become a necessity for anyone coming off long-term suboxone maintenence.
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: Calaquendi on May 28, 2012, 11:17:07 AM
If those adrenal fatigue supplements are truly effective, I think they might possibly become a necessity for anyone coming off long-term suboxone maintenence.

What supplements are those evolution?
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: lightswitchedon on May 28, 2012, 11:28:32 AM
Standard Process Adrenal Dessicated for 1-3 months, then Drenamin for a year or two.  This is for people with moderate to severe adrenal exhaustion, i.e. most addicts (from caffeine to dope).
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: Calaquendi on May 28, 2012, 02:23:03 PM
This is interesting - I don't remember reading about these...are they prescription only? Have to research this, thanks!
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: lightswitchedon on May 28, 2012, 09:40:57 PM
are they prescription only?

Nah, you can buy it online and it is not the only brand of adrenal cortex, but the best IMO.  You can use raw adrenal for a few months while at the same time doing things to bring your own adrenals back up to snuff.  Lots of vitamin C, magnesium, zinc, holy basil, relaxation techniques (yoga, meditation, what have you), exercise, HEALTHIER DIET, etc. 

In just a few months of focused effort toward restoring proper adrenal function you will likely end up bringing about so many other health benefits by doing the things mentioned above.  It may not even be that the adrenals are the issue for everyone, but it can still be a starting point toward making major health improvements.

After those few months one can take Drenamin to support the functioning of ones own adrenals.  BTW, I have felt a big boost from taking Adrenal Dessicated, it was even uncomfortable at times having all of that energy just because I wasn't used to it.
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: Calaquendi on May 31, 2012, 02:27:11 PM
Appreciate the info!  :)
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: ready2stop on July 26, 2012, 06:52:17 PM
Hi all, just happened upon your website and thread...  I'm actually in this exact situation.   I just went off suboxone 7 days ago onto morphine (approximately 45 - 60 mg a day) and am waiting till my flood date of 8/25/12.    Unfortunately Brandon/LightSwitchedOn's story and some others have freaked me out that I'm not taking enough time off suboxone before doing Ibogaine (approximately 5 weeks).   I was on approximately 4mg of suboxone for 4 years prior to stopping a week ago.   In addition to the morphine, I take 5 - 10 mg of valium to help me sleep too, as I was told by the Ibogaine provider that I needed to get off Ambien (8 year user) for at least a month, in addition to the Suboxone prior to Ibo treatment.  The transition onto morphine has been seamless - virtually no withdrawal symptoms and no getting high on the morphine.  I just feel regular, but a little anxious at times...  that's all.   I want the Ibogaine to work so bad on 8/25/12, as I'm ready to live an opiate free life...  but I'm pretty scared now that I didn't give myself enough time.   I've already taken a week's vacation to go to central america the end of August and bought plane tix for my wife & me - so I guess I gotta do it and hope for the best.  Any recommendations on any other things I should or should not do over the next 4 weeks to prepare for the treatment??  It sure would be appreciated, especially by those who have been through the process of getting off suboxone.  Thanks so much and glad I found your website.

abacus
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: lightswitchedon on July 26, 2012, 08:51:11 PM
Do not let my experience deter you at all.  With my flood attempt there were some failings on my part.  First off, I didn't wait long enough between my last dose of opiate and iboga.  Second off, I self-induced the majority of my purging which definitely was not a good thing to do.  That being said, I never even achieved a flood state.  I would like to write that there was more to it than that, but really there isn't (not anything relevant at least).

I was likely given enough iboga, but (mistakenly) purged much of it out in 2 rounds of self-induced purging.

I am not sure what I did and didn't say or mention in those first two weeks following, but whatever it was I should mention that I was likely on high doses of benzos.  The first two weeks were spent struggling and using and these last two have been a clean struggle to get through work, so I apologize for not providing this essential piece of information earlier.  There was no failing on the side of my provider considering I stubbornly did what I did against his advice.

I should also mention that I went into this with a prostate infection that seemed to be aggravated by iboga.  I know that for sure now that I haven't touched iboga in several weeks.  I felt like I had to pee 80% of the time....and it was a powerful feeling that I was struggling with.  I am not sure if this may've subsided had I gone to "flood land", but that thought of ataxia combined with that major irritation had me scared shitless and I never indicated (I don't think) that to my provider.

At this point I am not upset at about my mistakes and am happy to be where I am.  These last couple of days I have been doing okay.  The past is the past, however if others can learn from my experiences (including failings) than they ought to be shared.
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: ready2stop on July 26, 2012, 08:58:24 PM
Do not let my experience deter you at all.  With my flood attempt there were some failings on my part.  First off, I didn't wait long enough between my last dose of opiate and iboga.  Second off, I self-induced the majority of my purging which definitely was not a good thing to do.  That being said, I never even achieved a flood state.  I would like to write that there was more to it than that, but really there isn't (not anything relevant at least).

I was likely given enough iboga, but (mistakenly) purged much of it out in 2 rounds of self-induced purging.

I am not sure what I did and didn't say or mention in those first two weeks following, but whatever it was I should mention that I was likely on high doses of benzos.  The first two weeks were spent struggling and using and these last two have been a clean struggle to get through work, so I apologize for not providing this essential piece of information earlier.  There was no failing on the side of my provider considering I stubbornly did what I did against his advice.

I should also mention that I went into this with a prostate infection that seemed to be aggravated by iboga.  I know that for sure now that I haven't touched iboga in several weeks.  I felt like I had to pee 80% of the time....and it was a powerful feeling that I was struggling with.  I am not sure if this may've subsided had I gone to "flood land", but that thought of ataxia combined with that major irritation had me scared shitless and I never indicated (I don't think) that to my provider.

At this point I am not upset at about my mistakes and am happy to be where I am.  These last couple of days I have been doing okay.  The past is the past, however if others can learn from my experiences (including failings) than they ought to be shared.

Thank you very much for responding.  I called my provider to be after I read your post and the first things he asked were - "I wonder if he threw up some of the Ibogaine?"   and   "I wonder if he had taken any other drugs near the flood time".      So it all makes more sense to me.   Thanks so much for sharing your story Lights...  very helpful.
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: Interzone on June 08, 2013, 10:16:35 PM
Poppy Pods are good and all, last awhile thats fore sure, but i just need a doc from a pain clinic that reliasizes he's only writig a script for a month, to taper off subs to use ibogaine "why not" Just if there is any word on crooked doctors in was dc, arlington va, send me a message need to find a doc now!
Title: Re: What to do between stopping suboxone and flood dose??
Post by: frequentChi on December 16, 2013, 04:33:16 PM
 Hi  could someone tell me whats better for a comfortable step down for methadone Poppy Pods or Kratom, Im confused about whatt would work better. Thanx