Eboka.Info

Eboka General => Eboka Journals => Topic started by: Birdcatcher on August 30, 2012, 07:54:30 PM

Title: Here we go
Post by: Birdcatcher on August 30, 2012, 07:54:30 PM
I guess its appropriate at this point to start my journal mainly so I can organize everything and as a presentation for input from the group here. This is some of my history from a previous post  http://eboka.info/index.php?topic=1588.0
things I need to do are as follows-
-determine a date for the treatment to begin (could be as long as a year from now but as soon as possible)
-set the schedule for tapering off of Buprenorphine. I take 4mg a day
-determine wether I will self administer or fly far away. I am in the US
-Determine a safe way to obtain it for be self administered (preffered) if one exists
-Become educated in general and on the different flavors of Iboga i.e. TA, Ibogaine, bark, Hcl, etc
-Determine which one (one's) I will use and how much/often
-Excersise and get in the best shape I can. I am already working on this.
-Correct/treat some minor medical issues. Already working on this too.
-prepare for, organize, schedule, any medical procedures that are necessary. EKG EEG??? dont remember the one. ensure good health overall
- prepare financially (long vacation)
What am I missing??? I am in a good place as far as lifestyle goes to stay sober afterward. Its been quite a while since I have used anything other than the Bupe. I dont associate with the people or the environment related to drug use (Although I mostly used alone). I am very well educated when it comes to recovery. As Ive stated before. This approach isnt a passing fancy. It may take some time and some suffering but I believe 100% this is the best and only realistic way for me to  become totally drug free and to treat the root cause of m addiction. I feel the Iboga was made for me. I feel it in my heart. I want the old Birdcatcher back and so does my family. i want to rid the 80% emotional supression the bupe has taken. I want to get that feeling I used to get when I listened to music with my eyes closed, I want to feel the euphoria and love for life I used to feel. I want to shit like a normal person (Bupe=constipation) I want a hardon without having to worry if it will last or have to take a bonner pill (although they can be fun). 42 years old. lifes a little past the half way point. The rest of it can be the best half and i want it to be.....bad. Let the journey begin
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: lightswitchedon on September 02, 2012, 05:40:30 AM
Suggest a healthy diet.  It took me about a year before I really had changed to a pretty optimal diet and I am still there.  This type of change lasts.

Also, I would suggest getting that dose low (as you said) and switching to a short acting opiate for at least a few months before flooding.

This is just what I have learned from the many other experiences I've read, barring my own.

Sounds like you have the patience part down.  I was on bupe and involved in NA for 3 years all the while tapering and not touching anything else.  Went from 32mg - .625mg over those years, however in retrospect I would've been off the bupe for prob 5 months (on SAO like morphine or poppy pods) before attempting a flood.  This stuff is unlike any other opiate.
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: Birdcatcher on September 02, 2012, 11:45:40 AM
were you stable at .625mg with no w/d and did you function well on the SAO. If you've already wrote about that a link would suffice. Currently I am trying to figure out if it matters at which dose of sub I switch to SAO i.e. is there much difference between junping from 2mg or .625 to SAO for X months before Iboga and also the effects of fat cell and Bupe storage. A BMI calculator says I'm midrange over weight which means I could rid about 1/4 of my current body weight (scary thought). 

I am totally with ya on the diet/excercise thing.

I only have patience from the standpoint that I have got to make this work so the time it takes to prepare the best I can is what matters.
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: lightswitchedon on September 02, 2012, 03:46:21 PM
were you stable at .625mg with no w/d and did you function well on the SAO.

Yes and Yes.  The transition was easy and I actually felt high on the poppy pods some of the time.  Tolerance didn't even develop, only a little after 5 weeks.

Currently I am trying to figure out if it matters at which dose of sub I switch to SAO i.e. is there much difference between junping from 2mg or .625 to SAO for X months before Iboga

Depends on whether or not you have enough SAOs to cover you.  I needed about 10-12g poppy pods per day.  You would need more.  Then there is always morphine.  I think you can roll over at 2mg no problem.  ready2stop rolled over at 4mg.
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: Birdcatcher on September 16, 2012, 10:50:08 PM
So I go in to see my sub doc a few days ago and tell him I have gone from 4-2mg over the last month and he tells me "ok now take 3 halfs (3mg) a day and we will stay there for a couple months" WTF!!!! last time I saw him he said he was gonna have me off this by Christmas (which is close to my target). This guys nuts. Atleast I will be able to drop my last visit with him and have enough sub to carry me to the SAO phase. Maybe he realized thats too soon to let go of my $150/month or maybe he's just wacked
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: ready2stop on September 17, 2012, 09:40:42 AM
So I go in to see my sub doc a few days ago and tell him I have gone from 4-2mg over the last month and he tells me "ok now take 3 halfs (3mg) a day and we will stay there for a couple months" WTF!!!! last time I saw him he said he was gonna have me off this by Christmas (which is close to my target). This guys nuts. Atleast I will be able to drop my last visit with him and have enough sub to carry me to the SAO phase. Maybe he realized thats too soon to let go of my $150/month or maybe he's just wacked

If you are able to get morphine prescribed sooner vs. later and get it prescribed for at least 3 - 6 months, I would suggest getting off of suboxone as quickly as possible.  I transitioned from 4 mg of subox to 45 - 60mg a day of morphine sulfate seamlessly.   I started to get withdrawal symptoms and anxiety about 36 - 48 hours after my last dose of suboxone, but on day 3 post-subox, I took 60mg of morphine and felt like I was good as new.  It was unbelievably easy and comfortable.   It only took about a week before I was able to get down to 45 mg a day and basically stayed there for the final 4 weeks prior to the flood.    Also, just as an fyi, I did try during the last week (so week 5) to "get high" by taking bout 75 - 90mg of morphine + a couple 10mg hydros too - hoping to experience that last high ever before my flood - but I got absolutely nothing.  I mean zero euphoric feeling whatsoever.   I can't help but think this was due to long-term suboxone usage.  The Longer you can be on morphine or some other SAO prior to your Ibogaine Hcl flood, the better IMHO.     Good luck!     
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: GratefulDad on September 17, 2012, 02:52:47 PM
Keep the doc on your side, but follow your own body's messages.  If you can reduce faster, go ahead, and keep the extra meds, like you were thinking, so you can be sure not to cut yourself off before you're totally ready.  I know when planning to get clean, you need a good deal of time to yourself to recover, and sometimes things happen which delay our desires.  So, this way you'll be sure to have the doctor all the way up until you are for sure going to flood.  I waited until after I flooded and was feeling better to go tell my doctor/counselors I no longer needed their help.  It's always nice to have something to fall back on, just in case..
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: Birdcatcher on September 17, 2012, 06:16:39 PM
RTS, as of now I am planing to get down to .5mg of sub and then do the pods. I dont think I can get my hands on morphine or I would use your approach to expedite this process. I was going to tell my doc about my plan with Iboga but didnt feel the time was right or maybe I just chickened out. there is a possibility he might be able to help with the morph but he has got himself in a lot of shit lately (he's a bit of a rebel) so I'm doubting it. I also think he would make a good sitter if I self administer so I'm trying to plan how I will lay all this on him. How did you get morphine?
GD. good point on keeping him for back up, etc.. I'll take your advice. unexpected things could happen and I dont want to get in a pickle. If I decide to go to a treatment center I wont be able to afford it till March of next year (spouses bonus) and even if I self administer with a sitter march is still the earliest but I got to get to the SAO's ASAP without sub taper knocking me down too bad. March is really only a target date because the criteria that must be met first are getting lean and healthy, 3 months absolute minimum on SAO's and undertanding and feeling more comfortable with Iboga much better than I do now. If it ends up being late next year than so be it. Nothing will be rushed. I want to do all the things we think need to be done for "Iboga after sub" to be effective. Overall I still have things to sort out and the advice here is helping. Thanks
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: ready2stop on September 17, 2012, 07:12:37 PM
I went into my primary care doctor (with my wife, who is also a patient of the same doc) and let her know that I had been on sub for 4+ years and did not tell her about it because I was embarrassed about being dependent on narcotics AND I was afraid she would not prescribe me the other meds she had been prescribing for my negative side effects associated with the subxone - ambien for insomnia, xanax for anxiety, some other med for headaches and then she was also prescribing me Valium for my original injury that started my opiate dependency - two herniated discs in my neck.    I told her those things, but that I really wanted to get off suboxone because of those negative side-effects, plus MANY more side-effects too - such as horrible constipation, not being able to pee when I needed to, zero libido, premature ejaculation when I actually did wanna have sex, and major irritability about the stupidest shit.  It was causing major problems for me with my wife and my job - as I would get short sometimes with lawyers and Judges at work...  not good, not good at all.    I also told her that I had tried once to get off suboxone cold turkey and I went crazy and had suicidal thoughts - which were all true.   Then I said, but "I think I may have found a semi-cure or at least a drug that may give me a window of little to no withdrawal symptoms - Ibogaine."   I had 4 pages of various documentation of Ibogaine's efficacy and research from the Doctor at the University of Miami.  I also let her know I talked with many providers and they all said I needed to be off of suboxone for at least 5 weeks or they would not treat me...  and the providers recommended at least 60 mg of morphine sulfate to ward off withdrawal symptoms prior to Ibogaine.    She was a little taken back at first and overwhelmed, as she had never heard of Ibogaine, nor suboxone.   I just kept stressing that "I really need your help" and "I believe I can get off of all these other medications your prescribing if I get off of suboxone", other than the Valium for muscle spasms when my neck condition is exacerbated.   I was right about that one, as I've been off all those other meds since stopping suboxone.   I've been taking the valium to help me sleep though, instead of the aforementioned Ambien.   My body tells me that valium is not as bad for my brain as ambien, but that's just me.   Anyway, she said let me read all this info you've given me and do a little homework on my own and I'll call you in a couple days.   Well she ended up calling the Ibogaine provider and read a lot of info on suboxone/Ibogaine.   Then she called a few days later and said come on in and I'll write you the script...   and she said, "I can't believe all these doctors are just substituting one opiate for another.  These longer acting opiates are much worse".    That's how it went down.   I just wish I would've taken your approach Bird and taken much more time off of sub prior to Ibo (at least 3-6 mos) and I would've taken at least 3 weeks off work after Ibo.    Hindsight is 20/20 though.   I'm just glad my experiences may be able to assist another in getting off of suboxone.
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: Birdcatcher on September 17, 2012, 09:12:13 PM
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I appreciate it. I havent been to my PCP since starting sub. I always had my sub doc treat whatever minor issues I had along the way. My PCP is an internalist and I may go see him about this using your approach. its worth a shot.
I wish I didnt have to learn from your ( and others here) experience and feel quilty knowing I am learning while you're feeling like crap. I am going in to this knowing there are no gaurantees though. we may find one needs 8 months off sub for the Iboga to work correctly. i havent been able to find 1 case where the person said "I went 4 months between sub and Iboga and it worked great". Atleast no one with similar circumstances. We will eventually get some kind of idea for comparison between us. Unfortunatley it will be some time before we know how it worked for me but I'm well on my way. I wish you the best in getting back to your old self soon. Your still vertical after work today so thats a good sign  :). 
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: ready2stop on September 17, 2012, 09:22:19 PM
Excellent.  I like your approach of no rushing anything.  Good luck!    :)
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: lightswitchedon on September 18, 2012, 08:50:11 AM
I personally could care less about why iboga doesn't work well for sub users and more about what is so different about sub that it is so difficult to recover from.  It is not as simple as "well bupe binds so tightly to the receptors".  BS - there is more to it and I would like to know what that is.  I think I am going to start writing R&B until I piss them off.  Sub is becoming protocol and touted as an opiate addiction cure >:( and we need to understand it better....SOON.  Who knows what the long-term effects of this drug are.

I will get blocked and get the runaround from R&B, but then I will compile research (if others are willing to help), put that shit in a book and get it out there for all to see.  What happened to the days of the ativan and clonidine detox?  Worked just fine for many who came before me.

Sub is very, very difficult to get off of.  In retrospect, I would've rather tapered my methadone dose 1 mg per week and told them not to give me take homes.  I would've gotten clean and felt alright much faster.  When I switched to sub in 2008 my methadone dose was 80mg, granted I was highly uncomfortable at that dose, but I was managing.

This recovery is a process, we have to take the help we can get (sometimes substances, prescriptions for short-term), but try not to substitute one addiction for another.  That is why NA is so important to me.  It keeps my addiction in check.

Birdcatcher - get away from sub as long as possible before doing the iboga.  Some may say 2 months is enough, disregard that.  How could it hurt to wait 4-6 months and give your brain more time to recover.  You can maintain on pods or morphine for that long quite easily if you are determined and communicating through these boards.
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: ready2stop on September 18, 2012, 09:32:11 AM
I personally could care less about why iboga doesn't work well for sub users and more about what is so different about sub that it is so difficult to recover from.  It is not as simple as "well bupe binds so tightly to the receptors".  BS - there is more to it and I would like to know what that is.  I think I am going to start writing R&B until I piss them off.  Sub is becoming protocol and touted as an opiate addiction cure >:( and we need to understand it better....SOON.  Who knows what the long-term effects of this drug are.

I will get blocked and get the runaround from R&B, but then I will compile research (if others are willing to help), put that shit in a book and get it out there for all to see.  What happened to the days of the ativan and clonidine detox?  Worked just fine for many who came before me.

Sub is very, very difficult to get off of.  In retrospect, I would've rather tapered my methadone dose 1 mg per week and told them not to give me take homes.  I would've gotten clean and felt alright much faster.  When I switched to sub in 2008 my methadone dose was 80mg, granted I was highly uncomfortable at that dose, but I was managing.

This recovery is a process, we have to take the help we can get (sometimes substances, prescriptions for short-term), but try not to substitute one addiction for another.  That is why NA is so important to me.  It keeps my addiction in check.

Birdcatcher - get away from sub as long as possible before doing the iboga.  Some may say 2 months is enough, disregard that.  How could it hurt to wait 4-6 months and give your brain more time to recover.  You can maintain on pods or morphine for that long quite easily if you are determined and communicating through these boards.

Right on brother.  I'm with you on all counts.  BTW - who is this "R&B" you allude to?? 

 
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: lightswitchedon on September 18, 2012, 10:19:32 AM
Suboxone is made by the manufacturers called Reckitt Benckiser
Pharmaceuticals Inc.

Maybe it should be RB, but then people would think I am talking about root bark. ;)
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: Birdcatcher on September 18, 2012, 08:34:10 PM
I personally could care less about why iboga doesn't work well for sub users and more about what is so different about sub that it is so difficult to recover from.  It is not as simple as "well bupe binds so tightly to the receptors".  BS - there is more to it and I would like to know what that is.  I think I am going to start writing R&B until I piss them off.  Sub is becoming protocol and touted as an opiate addiction cure >:( and we need to understand it better....SOON.  Who knows what the long-term effects of this drug are.

I will get blocked and get the runaround from R&B, but then I will compile research (if others are willing to help), put that shit in a book and get it out there for all to see.  What happened to the days of the ativan and clonidine detox?  Worked just fine for many who came before me.

Sub is very, very difficult to get off of.  In retrospect, I would've rather tapered my methadone dose 1 mg per week and told them not to give me take homes.  I would've gotten clean and felt alright much faster.  When I switched to sub in 2008 my methadone dose was 80mg, granted I was highly uncomfortable at that dose, but I was managing.

This recovery is a process, we have to take the help we can get (sometimes substances, prescriptions for short-term), but try not to substitute one addiction for another.  That is why NA is so important to me.  It keeps my addiction in check.

Birdcatcher - get away from sub as long as possible before doing the iboga.  Some may say 2 months is enough, disregard that.  How could it hurt to wait 4-6 months and give your brain more time to recover.  You can maintain on pods or morphine for that long quite easily if you are determined and communicating through these boards.
Light your gettin my blood boiling. lets go get the SOB's  >:(. As big of an epidemic as this shits becoming I wouldnt doubt the government is in on it. We go attacking them (verbally) and men in black suites might show up at are door LOL.

It is ingraned in my head. I am going to go the for the long term on SAO's atleast!!!! 4 months. Longer if I am functioning well. I dont want to fu^( this up. If 4+ months doesnt work the next poor soul can go longer.
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: ready2stop on September 18, 2012, 08:51:22 PM
I personally could care less about why iboga doesn't work well for sub users and more about what is so different about sub that it is so difficult to recover from.  It is not as simple as "well bupe binds so tightly to the receptors".  BS - there is more to it and I would like to know what that is.  I think I am going to start writing R&B until I piss them off.  Sub is becoming protocol and touted as an opiate addiction cure >:( and we need to understand it better....SOON.  Who knows what the long-term effects of this drug are.

I will get blocked and get the runaround from R&B, but then I will compile research (if others are willing to help), put that shit in a book and get it out there for all to see.  What happened to the days of the ativan and clonidine detox?  Worked just fine for many who came before me.

Sub is very, very difficult to get off of.  In retrospect, I would've rather tapered my methadone dose 1 mg per week and told them not to give me take homes.  I would've gotten clean and felt alright much faster.  When I switched to sub in 2008 my methadone dose was 80mg, granted I was highly uncomfortable at that dose, but I was managing.

This recovery is a process, we have to take the help we can get (sometimes substances, prescriptions for short-term), but try not to substitute one addiction for another.  That is why NA is so important to me.  It keeps my addiction in check.

Birdcatcher - get away from sub as long as possible before doing the iboga.  Some may say 2 months is enough, disregard that.  How could it hurt to wait 4-6 months and give your brain more time to recover.  You can maintain on pods or morphine for that long quite easily if you are determined and communicating through these boards.
Light your gettin my blood boiling. lets go get the SOB's  >:(. As big of an epidemic as this shits becoming I wouldnt doubt the government is in on it. We go attacking them (verbally) and men in black suites might show up at are door LOL.

It is ingraned in my head. I am going to go the for the long term on SAO's atleast!!!! 4 months. Longer if I am functioning well. I dont want to fu^( this up. If 4+ months doesnt work the next poor soul can go longer.

We are all in this together.  Hopefully, those who come after us, who are trying to quit sub, will suffer less because of our experiences and posts.
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: Birdcatcher on September 22, 2012, 02:47:37 PM
Well just a little update to keep the journal going..............
Over all I am doing well. excersise is consistant, getting enough sleep, diet is consistant except for the weekends when I tend to "let loose" a little, and I am consistantly working on my entire recovery including expanding my knowledge of Iboga. Even hitting a NA meeting here and there. I know recovery inside and out (have'nt mastered it LOL) but going to the meetings is helping me to keep it fresh in my mind. I got away from meetings over the years because I thought they where a waste of time for me. wrong again.

 Routine seems to be the key to my progress so far. I was never big on routine before but the structure is making all the things I am doing fall in to place. my only problem, and its a big one, is I have been reluctant to reduce my sub dose further. I keep putting it off only because I have been feeling so damn good the last week or so. I am going to try a different method of taper. I was making a reduction, becoming adjusted then another reduction. I am trying to figure out the math and metering but I plan to do a liguid taper where I disolve the sub in to water then reduce the dose by a very small amouny every day (.02 mg/ day). if I experience too much discomfort I will hold for a few days. I'm thinking this process will better align with my "routine/consistancy" theory. Even though I have time goals for all this it is not the most important, Progress, and ultimatly success, is the only things I will make damn sure I dont let fail.
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: Birdcatcher on October 21, 2012, 08:44:47 PM
October update-
Everything is pretty much the same as my last post above i.e. stable. Since then my doctor and I briefly discussed my departure from sub. Certain circumstances meant my last visit with him was pretty short and was only able to get minimal information from him. We did discuss continueing my taper and in late January he said we would be using a certain medication to detox from the sub. This pushes my original time frame back a little but how I will be tapering to detox will be more comfortable. no worries. its more important its all done right. not fast. I look forward to finding out more about this detox he has in mind on my next visit. I have yet to let him in on the Iboga plans but am confident he will be somewhat understanding if not completly on board. My wife is growing a poppy field in the back yard to see what we can yield from our own crop. Hopefully the detox will mean minimal poppies needed per day. I guess i could go clean for the 4 months between sub and Iboga but what ever will ensure stability will be the dictator. Less speculation and more facts on my next update.
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: lightswitchedon on October 22, 2012, 09:30:29 AM
I am curious what your doc plans on using for your detox?  I have a ton of knowledge and experience with this sub thing and please bounce your ideas off of myself, R2S and the others, we may prove invaluable in your quest.  I am now clean clean clean for real after struggling for several months post sub.  Benzos, cannabis and a little bout with alcohol.

It took 4 months for my endorphins to start kicking in with regularity and that is with a healthy diet (compared to 90% of people), lots of exercise and tai chi.  I can say with certainty that my system is back online and my only struggle is waking up really early in the morning, like 4am sometimes.  I feel like crap, but it subsides after a couple of hours and a small cup of coffee.

I am definitely a case of one coming off of sub who can say "If I can do it, anyone can."  You probably know this already, but Romeo and some others over on the sub forum have some great experience.  For the iboga part, that is all here, but there is WAY more to it and I know you know that.  In fact, if I recall right I've seen you on that forum.

I have said it before and I will say it again....other than the things mentioned above, there are several things that have propelled me to a quick recovery (relatively speaking) and it goes in this order for me.

1.  NA and loving support from friends in there (I have my most spiritual experiences when I break down and open up with someone "in the rooms", my aura turns green (I see them often) which is healing and I feel on top of the world.  It is the honesty and surrender that just magically transforms me.  Human (spirit) being to human (spirit) being....there is no better way of healing imo.
2.  Kambo - without a doubt a Godsend.  Cleansing in so many ways.
3.  Music - OMG, I can't believe how much this jumpstarts the endorphins, serotonin, etc.
4.  Routine - Sometimes it sucks, but it helps so much to be in a routine with work, meetings, working out, reading etc.

I am pulling for you big time and you are wise and correct to say "its more important its all done right.  not fast."  True dat!
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: Birdcatcher on October 22, 2012, 08:37:54 PM
thanks for the comments Light. I am on the right track but still have a lot to do mentally and physically. I know you guys know first hand alot of the experiences I will be facing in the future and I will definetly be drawing off of that. I have set some pretty high goals for myself. Mainly no relapsing. I have been up and down this road so many times (first time with opiates). I have known how to keep clean for a long time but would always make the choice, after subsconcious coercion to use. I think I have a pretty good idea how to be succesful this time and I am counting on Iboga to help tie the knot. The big factor is that "hole". everything else is pretty easy for me.
I will definetly share what meds/process my doc plans on using once I find out. He laid the detox thing on me as I was walking out the door so I didnt get a chance to get details. He told me a while back he will not prescribe benzos so I dont expect that to be a part of it. Middle of next month I see him again. The good thing is (maybe) is that he is one of the docs responsible for getting the sub clinics going in this part of the state so he is no stranger to getting people off the shit. He is also an addict and claims to be an addictionoligist. The guy is definetly a rebel. I feel devine intervention, or maybe the Iboga spirit sent me to him. I have more confidence in him than my last doc that took the 8 hour course and started writing sub scrips.
Yes I frequent the sub board but am having a hard time restraining myself over there. Sick and tired of the regulars touting sub as being some wonderful thing without presenting the world of shit one is getting themselves into. "stay on it as long as you think you need to" of ya, thats a big fuckin mistake. Definetly some good guys over there though like Romeo, DOaC and a few others
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: buck36 on October 23, 2012, 04:23:53 PM
Hi Bird... Can you please direct me to this "Sub Board" that you mention? I have a friend who recently started on sub for an Oxy habit... I fear for her and want her to educate herself on what she is getting herself into. Thanks!
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: Birdcatcher on October 24, 2012, 01:14:19 AM
here it is buck http://suboxforum.com/index.php please pass my opinion along to your friend also. although there is alot of useful info over on that board its highly unlikely they will read something like this- I believe sub can be benificial as a short term (like 2-3months) transition drug in some cases mainly where the addict is new at the whole addiction thing (not a seasoned veteran) or when the addict can not afford the time it takes for the detox process from oxy immediatly after the damage caused by the base addiction (need to keep working, going to school, etc). one of the biggest issues I see with sub is the addict gets on it, feels great, makes progress in life and recovery (even though it seems to be more compliance than actual hardcore recovery) then, at some point, realizes they have become physically and psyhcologically dependent on it. At this point if their doctor isnt game for long term maintenence they start doc hoping. Yes they may not get as high on it as oxy but the use/reward issue exists and it is essentially the same as the previous addiction without quite as many negative effects. The addict still finds themselves seeking their "fix" daily or they will get sick. before long a year 2 or 3 passes and the hook is in deep. now instead of it taking a month or 2 to recover from the oxy they are in for many months, atleast one I have heard as long as a year, of post acute withdraw, anxiety, depression, etc. From my understanding at this point the lengthy recovery is due largely in part to the long term use/ storage of bupe in the fat and muscle. Of course a neuro train wreck too. There appears to be marginally effective means of combating the long recovery time with intense detox but I havent found a long term success story on that yet. then, of course there's Iboga and we are in the process of trying to sort that one out but still no free ride but maybe our best hope (I pray). Conversly, there appears to be numerous success stories of people that used sub short term and were able to get off it with minimal torture but even that information is sparse mainly because it appears these people have gone on with their lives and no longer frequent the boards or maybe relapsed and still using. this is my opinion and my observations/interpretations from almost 4 years of being in the thick of it and a lifetime of addiction. please send your friend my best wishes.
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: lightswitchedon on October 24, 2012, 08:38:45 AM
It is generally agreed by doctors who are anti sub maintenance and pro sub detox that 21 days is the max that it should be used.  Many rehab facilities follow this method, although not everyone needs the full 21 days.  Professionals taper throughout that period depending on the needs of the individual.

For me, I walked into a doctor's office trying to get off of methadone and it was basically like "here is 32mg per day (max dose), figure out your dosing and we will get you off of this stuff pain free in no time."  BS, it took about 4 long years of patiently tapering before I PAINFULLY came off of the stuff.  In retrospect, it would've been much easier to ride out oxy withdrawals...recovery time is much faster.

I am not going to complain.  Now I have invaluable experience to share and there was a time when I though that I would be on methadone for the rest of my life.  I do however feel that people who are about to start suboxone need to know exactly what it is that they are getting into.
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: ready2stop on October 24, 2012, 08:40:41 AM
Hi Bird... Can you please direct me to this "Sub Board" that you mention? I have a friend who recently started on sub for an Oxy habit... I fear for her and want her to educate herself on what she is getting herself into. Thanks!

Here's another one that helped me too:

http://www.subsux.com
Title: Re: Here we go
Post by: ready2stop on March 09, 2014, 05:32:23 PM
It is generally agreed by doctors who are anti sub maintenance and pro sub detox that 21 days is the max that it should be used.  Many rehab facilities follow this method, although not everyone needs the full 21 days.  Professionals taper throughout that period depending on the needs of the individual.

For me, I walked into a doctor's office trying to get off of methadone and it was basically like "here is 32mg per day (max dose), figure out your dosing and we will get you off of this stuff pain free in no time."  BS, it took about 4 long years of patiently tapering before I PAINFULLY came off of the stuff.  In retrospect, it would've been much easier to ride out oxy withdrawals...recovery time is much faster.

I am not going to complain.  Now I have invaluable experience to share and there was a time when I though that I would be on methadone for the rest of my life.  I do however feel that people who are about to start suboxone need to know exactly what it is that they are getting into.

I agree 100% LightSwitch.  I've now been sub-free since 12/12/12.  I believe the Ibogaine did something to my brain to make me not get high or feel any euphoric feelings from narcotics (hydro/oxy).  Don't know how or why, but I'm grateful.