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General => Introductions => Topic started by: sassyfras on June 25, 2010, 05:05:43 PM

Title: Another new member
Post by: sassyfras on June 25, 2010, 05:05:43 PM
Hello All,

I've been lurking here for a while now, joined about a week ago but have had too much going on in my life to take the time for a proper introduction. I'm delighted with the "feel" of this forum....a high degree of intelligence/knowledge/experience of the subject matter combined with so much compassion & caring. I also see some healthy spirited debate/discussion happening, which is great when it is done with civility the way it is here.

I am a 62 year old woman (yup, one of the original hippies) who got addicted to prescription oxycontin 7 years ago after having tried a vast array of "natural" treatments as well as many other pharmaceuticals before trying opiates. I have fibromyalgia, CFS, degenerative disc disease and gastroparesis, so I deal with some pretty severe pain, but it was the extreme fatigue/lack of motivation,"lead suit" from the CFS that was my most debilitating set of symptoms....I somehow stayed alive through nearly 3 years being in a state almost identical to a severe case of P.A.W.S.(before I was finally diagnosed) & this was before I had ever taken an opiate. When I was given the oxys, they greatly relieved my pain, but more important to me...they completely got rid of all those horrid CFS symptoms and I very quickly went from being nearly 90% bedridden to being able to function, & function very well again.

I knew NOTHING about addiction back then, it simply had not ever been a topic in my life. I DID drink too much in my '30's but had no problem quitting that and I suppose I had the same attitude so many have about addiction~~~that it only happened to weak, somehow morally challenged people~~~never to someone like me who was independent & disciplined! Ha.

That was then. In the meantime I've learned that opiates take away a whole lot more than our pain and I've become obsessed with finding a way back to an opiate free life. A challenge for me because I am not healthy or strong enough to put myself through major withdrawals...at one point during a methadone detox I had a stroke...so my hope is to find a reasonably gentle means of getting free. I had thought that Kratom would help me, & it did in so far as as helping me by using it to stretch the totally inadequate dosage of oxys my doctor gives me but it's a very mixed blessing.

Anyway, when I first began to learn about Iboga I thought this might be the way for me....and I hope/pray that it still may be....but probably not in a flood dose application. So I've been searching high & low trying to find any info. about using it in a microdosing protocol, over a longer period of time. I read a very interesting article in Mindvox about a group of chronic pain patients who found that they needed to keep on taking their opiate meds after trying to detox with a flood dose of Ibogaine. So they were taking from 25 - 50 mg Ibogaine HCL per day in order to keep their opiate tolerance as low as possible & this seemed to be working very well for them. They would dose with the Ibo for 3 weeks and then take a week off. I got very hopeful after reading that and ordered some root bark from Shamanic Extracts.

i used a mortar & pestle to grind it down into the finest powder possible & encapsulated it. I took from 250 mg - 500 mg per day for several days and though I felt absolutely nothing, no effects whatsoever, I WAS able to get by with less oxys...and on the day after I stopped dosing I noticed that my general mood seemed much better. But...this was all so subtle that I have no way of knowing whether or not it was simply a placebo effect. I decided to order more root bark from a vendor with a better reputation and to hopefully gather more info about microdosing.( I stopped because I had only ordered a very small amount to begin with.)

I think it was Nobu who said something about a person needing to do a flood dose before using the microdosing method. I would LOVE to do a flood dose ( I'm no stranger to visionary journeys, have worked & played with other entheogens in my time..) but am not confidant about my body being able to handle that at this point. So my big question now is~~~is there any way that I can safely get some of the benefits/blessings of Iboga using other methods?

I think I'm probably just at the tip of a demographic iceberg....thousands of older opiate addicts with underlying health conditions that make most detox modalities too difficult/unsafe. We need help too, we still value out lives & long to have as much freedom back as possible! Even if I could just lower my tolerance I would be happy.....but doing so on my own takes days of misery just to lower it the teensiest bit.

I've just received an order of root bark from "Reset Nu" and want to get started with this asap, as soon as I have a bit more info as I want to do it right this time, with carefully measured doses, change of diet if necessary & meticulous note-keeping so that my experiments might be of help to others too. I would be SO grateful for anything anyone here could share with me about doing this!

BTW, "Riverhaven" is a dear friend of mine and one of the sweetest, most intelligent and most compassionate people I've ever been blessed to know. So happy to see you here too, River!!!! ( Please pm me...there must have been some kind of a screw up at the other forum...WTF happened???) ???

I'm looking forward to getting to know all of you better~~~ ;D
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: GratefulDad on June 25, 2010, 05:28:03 PM
Welcome to Eboka Sassyfras!  This seems to be a hot topic, as I have spoke to several of our more mature crowd about the same type of questions.  We are all still learning.  I am assuming the study you were speaking about, sometimes called dirty maintenance, is online somewhere in PDF format and I'll try and post it on the forums here. 

Reset.nu does have a great reputation, so the bark should be great quality.  I am looking forward to hearing people's results using lower dosing regimens.  I have done several floods myself, and loads of boosters and low doses just for the numerous benefits it gives, not so much for a specific problem any more. 

Glad to have you aboard, as this information will prove very valuable for others like you out there trying to do what they can with iboga, but safely.  I'll be looking forward to all you can share, and will keep an eye out for any relevant information I come across in my studies.  Working together, I think we can really find what it is each of us are looking for, or need.

Again, glad to have you aboard!
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: x on June 25, 2010, 05:31:03 PM
sassy!

Welcome, I'm glad you're here!

Shamanic Extracts has had a pretty bad rep for rootbark in the past. I'd just chalk it up to experience.

I wouldn't rule out a flood dose of Iboga yet, unless you are just set against it. It's a very healing experience, and doses are adjusted for age as well as other factors.

On microdosing, keep in mind that RB is about 5% active alkaloids. Most people can 'feel it' working at about 100mg of active alkaloids. That's about 2g of RB. About two teaspoonfuls. :)
I'd call that a booster dose, and not microdose. Just me, I don't think there's an 'official' dose chart, lol.
Those who are sensitive to the Wood can also feel the much smaller microdoses. I use about a half teaspoonful/nickel (coin) sized pile/two capsules/300-600mg at a time, if that gives you any indication. I can always feel it, even at that dose. I have no active addictions besides tobacco.

Roy on here can tell you about how a flood dose gives a 'discount on pain'. I think those are his exact words. :) He's also flooded and is in your age range...tmi, Roy?

I have heard of sub flood doses Iboga being used to get off easier on one's drug of choice, but have not yet heard of successful addiction interruption on sub flood doses.

Please do keep us posted! We all learn together when we share here. :)
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: riverhaven on June 25, 2010, 06:22:51 PM
Hi Sassy-- Thanks for the kind words and I am glad my joining got you out of the closet LOL...  I keep telling you that lots of clinics only want healthy addicts -- deaths are bad for business.  There are a whole host of us who aren't healthy and they will automatically say no to you.  They will run out of healthy addicts LOL-- we tend to end up not so healthy over time.  It's also a matter of training-- as an anesthesiologist with some ICU training-- things like a prolonged qt interval on an EKG don't throw me into a panic.... but some PHd psychologist running the program will for sure be changing his/her pants LOL...  I really meant it on that other board that I'd love to set up an ibogaine clinic-- and I wouldn't turn people like you away.  You get a sense of what you can handle in anesthesia training and so my threshold is a lot higher.  However, microdosing right now seems to be your only option and I think you too should try it.....
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: sassyfras on June 25, 2010, 06:58:54 PM
 :) Thank you so  much for the warm welcome, everyone! I'm feeling pretty close to tears & I don't cry easily....but just the thought of there being some hope for me, (maybe even being able to do a flood?) is so precious to me. I've been feeling very much at the end of my tether lately, as if one road after another has come to a dead end. I'm sure most of you have felt that at some point in the rocky path off opiates! I think I was almost afraid of joining this forum and being told that Iboga cannot help me unless I do a flood & then what??? So I'm feeling a bit more hopeful again now and very determined to learn all I can about the most optimum use of Iboga for older addicts such as myself. It's good to know I'm not the only ancient one here too!

Lynn, I've posted at our other forum and whatever went wrong should soon be straightened out. No way are we going to let you disappear!
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: riverhaven on June 25, 2010, 07:03:50 PM
Well thanks... I did get pretty bummed.  But you know me-- I firmly believe in things happening for a reason, karma and perhaps we two were meant to be here now for a reason....
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: harveyplex on June 25, 2010, 07:31:37 PM
I read a post above and wanted to defend S.E. .
If anyoune has a question about what i said just spend the $25 and purchase 2 grams .
It is stronger than anything i have had from and other distributer .

It is stronger than sample that anyone has sent me .

this is an exert from a email i wrote my friend today  .........


3 grams of rb from SE is very very strong . I now know why i flooded so good the first time . i took 30 grams that was made into an excellent TA !
I killed my opiate addiction , killed it !  i tried  a boost yesterday  of 4 grams  - i still have 2 caps left ! 2 0f 5 ( 4 grams split up between ) though one is only half full and i took that too . what i am getting at is i still have 2 000 sized gelgaps left !!!   i actually only had taken about 2.6 or so and it really rocked my boat !
IT IS DEFFINATELY THE BEST RB EVER .
i had 30 grams saved up for my 6 month follow up but didnt take it because i wanted to try lab TA and maybe better understand its prowess.
yesterday is the first time ive tried SE rb since my flood 8 months ago.
it is so strong stronger than anything ive ever had and ive had rb from 4 sources now and all different types of  materials.
I strongly belive that paging $25 a2 gram baggie to grt up to your flood dose ( once you find that out) .  Its top notch.
i order the 25 dollar stuff but the often send me the 30 stuff thats blessed by the bwiti - and i do not think that is a come on when they say that either.
i think its the most real deal out there .
Nobu said quality quality Rb can produce visuals at 8 grams .  
I am going to tell you something you will understand that if you ever took 3 g of RB from SE and that is you would diffenately see visuals !!
 
I have taken up to 12 grams of the same RB you tried and though i felt alot it was not even close to the Quality of the SE rb !!
 
no clue till yesterday , no clue !
IB
VOLCANA is a purple/lavender/pink (kinda like mimosa rb )
its easy to see the difference , easy - they can powder it to try to blend it though .
 
Thanks again ----- for all the cheer .
I look forward to chatting again.
 
Much love and Mahalo
 
- bee

PS  I told Aihab about it today and i am telling Ibogaworld soon as I  square things up with Michelle about another matter .
- how good that bark was from SE !!
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: GratefulDad on June 25, 2010, 07:41:08 PM
Good to know Shamanic Extracts is now giving quality bark, but at $25 bucks for 2 grams, it damn sure better be!  That is over double the highest price I have heard to date..  That's $1250 bucks, plus shipping for 100 grams.  That ain't much less than the price of a whole kilo (1000 g) from the best prices I have found through a few other suppliers..  It had better be 10 times as good as anything out there for me to consider it..
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: riverhaven on June 25, 2010, 07:48:24 PM
I used SE for my March booster-- and since I've done a flood- I do KNOW when I've gotten the good stuff or not-- and the SE stuff was good for me too.  I got a nice buzzing in my ears and some open eye visions from it.  Clearly it was good root bark....but then I kept hearing bad stuff about them, and it did take almost 6 weeks to get here, so I ordered from iboga world.  Let's hope I get good stuff there too....
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: harveyplex on June 25, 2010, 07:48:43 PM
I know $$$$ , I know $$$$$$ !!  
I could not believe how strong it is !!
ive taken 12 grams of RB for a boost after my flood .
Though i spaced out the dosage then but the amount i took yesterday blew that 12 grams away !!!
Blown Away  !!
I agree its too expensive but its very , very good (9/10 maybe?) .

I am looking at different RB out there . I am only going to buy rb from now on TA is too expesive .
I can make a good TA (learned from the pros last December ) and i think thats the best most affordable way to go !
 .... now i need a top quality RB source .

- hp
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: harveyplex on June 25, 2010, 07:53:00 PM
its the same thing that continue to float around .
If you havent tried something you shouldnt talk bad about it .
 Thanks for your good word on them too they need some good things to be said about them.
- hp
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: fallout330 on June 25, 2010, 10:24:19 PM
Good to hear of the positive experience HP.  I believe someone on the board had a bad experience with SE in the past, by receiving Voacanga root bark instead of T. Iboga RB.   :(

Thanks for sharing the info HP.
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: GratefulDad on June 25, 2010, 10:38:26 PM
Harvey, how much of this excellent bark do you think it'd take for a full on flood for someone like me?  I mean I realize you don't know my tolerance or whatever, but maybe judging from what I have described here in my dosages and stuff, how much do you think I'd need?  
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: x on June 26, 2010, 01:06:19 AM
Really good to hear there's new info on the quality from Shamanic Extracts!
I do know that sometimes suppliers don't know what they're getting, and send it out without testing for themselves.
Love to support a good company. But, I gotta say, I'm happy where I'm at, and the price from SE seems very, very high.

Great to have you women on the board!
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: x on June 26, 2010, 01:46:45 AM
Heya, sassy. I posted the link to the article you reference over on riverhaven's intro thread. It's great info, to be sure. Want to post it here, as well: http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v15n1/iboga21.pdf

Nobu was talking about how microdoses are different than a flood, that it's the flood that resets. You cartainly CAN take RB before a flood. The effects are still being evaluated by many, we're all learning as we go.
I have given RB to a handful of people now preflood, as an introduction to the spirit of Iboga, and as a way for the body to prepare, to recognize the chemical signature of Iboga. From my limited sample, I have seen 1/3 of the people (addicts and psychospiritual, both) say they feel no effects at all. Another third notices some effect, colors brighter, or an uplifted mood. The final third have a noticeable experience, auditory changes, psychological or spiritual revelation (the AHA! moment), intense thoughts, sleep interruption. The dosing on this has been between 500mg-1g RB.

I'll be reporting on TA use at about 2g (approx 600mg in HCl terms) here in the near future, both for myself and a couple other people. No-one actively addicted, though two I intend to see through the experience have never taken a flood dose. I'll keep you posted. I know also that Claudio Naranjo used these mid size therapeutic doses with his patients...there's an article somewhere...

:D
Tia
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: riverhaven on June 26, 2010, 08:58:59 AM
Thanks for that article Tia-- answered just about every question I ever had on microdosing!
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: sassyfras on June 26, 2010, 12:44:22 PM
I just lost a long post because I got timed out while writing it and I forgot to copy it before hitting submit...& now I'm out of time so will catch up later. Losing a heartfelt post like that has to be one of the most frustrating things of all!

Thank you, Tia, for that link! I got a lot more out of reading it this time, somehow I missed that part about the woman who was successfully microdosing Ibo even though she had never done a flood~~~that is such valuable info & I wonder why there is such a paucity of info about this way of working with Ibo...
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: Calaquendi on June 26, 2010, 07:52:38 PM
Hello sassyfras - been having pc issues but wanted to welcome you aboard, thanks for joining the family! I'll try to catch up soon...keep on keepin on!
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: x on June 27, 2010, 01:09:58 PM
sassy,

That's happened to me before, losing an hour's worth of writing. I like to think that it wasn't meant to be read, but honestly sometimes it's just my own mistake. ;)

I think one of the reasons we don't hear much on using Iboga without a flood is that the flood does such wonderful things, it's what most people aim for. The other reason that I'm certain of is that we are all just people, and many who may be working with the sub flood doses don't bother to write about it. Or, if they do, don't pursue putting it where it's easily accessible. I know how much knowledge I gain when I spend time with other providers, just through conversation I pick up so much that I've never seen written. Iboga is still in it's infancy in the west, and due to the legal status here in the US, it's difficult to disseminate information on a wide scale without fear of repercussions. This forum, and mindvox, are very unique.

Tia
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: sassyfras on June 27, 2010, 06:12:32 PM
Thank you for the warm welcome Cal....I'm honored to finally meet the great "Cosmic Elf"! Always did have a weak spot for members of the Elven species... ;D

Yes Tia, when I lose a post I wonder if it just wasn't meant to be too, but more than that, what it's telling me is to wake up & be more "reliably present" in all my activities. When I walk around in a semi-unconscious state of mind I notice myself making way more mistakes & being generally forgetful.

You're right, there are probably quite a few people out there successfully microdosing Iboga without even thinking of recording & sharing their stories. Maybe they don't even know this forum exists, I didn't find it until after I joined the Ibo List and saw the post about it in there. This IS a very special forum and I can see it becoming the most complete & finest emporium of everything Iboga related. So great to be able to come here with my concerns, questions, ideas, etc. and get such good information. I'm an ardent fan of information & experience sharing and am so grateful for these cyber connections!

I can certainly understand the need for some discretion since Ibo is not legal in certain countries...please feel free to tell me if I'm speaking too freely....happily it IS legal where I live in Canada, so I might not be watching my P's & Q's as I should be.

I'm still waiting for my empty capsules order to get here before starting my microdosing journey. Or I might try just eating it...when I have a bit of time & space so I can get a feel for the taste of this plant teacher...And I DO very much appreciate why a flood dose is so invaluable & I certainly haven't given up on that possibility. But I'm going to take my time and let Iboga itself tell me if it's the right choice.....as I gradually ingest more of it I'm sure I'll get a better sense of how much & how often is right for me. Ha, having said that, doesn't mean I won't be coming around here still trying to glean every bit of knowledge I can!
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: GratefulDad on June 27, 2010, 07:17:22 PM
No problems sharing your experiences, sassyfras.  No one has to know where any of this takes place, as we all only deal with iboga in legal countries, anyways. ;) ;)

Again, we're happy to have you aboard and sharing.  I have been taking iboga semi regularly since my last flood on March 2nd.  Often one 500 mg capsule of ibogaworld TA about once or twice every week or two..  It's enough to give me a nice little buzz and keep me happy.  Gives me better mood, makes me more conscious of my actions, and I can make better choices.  When I eat iboga though, I eat enough that it gives me a real head change.  Often mild "trails" when I watch something move across my visual field.  I have a definite nice body buzz, often a lil buzzing in my ears, that is kid of interesting.  It almost sounds like the instruments the Bwiti play during a ceremony.. 

I ate 4 grams of bark today and been hanging out having a great time all day.  I love iboga!!
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 02, 2010, 08:14:36 PM
Hi Sassy!

Welcome to the forum!

It took me a while, but I finally got to your introduction.  I have been planning on doing so ever since I saw your reference to the I Ching in your response to one of my posts.  I am an ardent I Ching fan and consult it pretty much daily.

BTW, click the "forever" box when you logon and you will never be timed out.

I have done several non-flood doses of iboga TA and found them to be very helpful, though I was not doing them for opiate detox.  Here's a link to the description of my first experience, the most interesting to date, which was only 1.5g and not in the least stressful:

     http://eboka.pkeffect.com/index.php/topic,69.0.html

I have literally been through dozens of cold turkeys, and you might want to consider just biting the bullet and going cold turkey yourself.  There are numerous things one can use to help minimize withdrawal.  Then, after a week when the major, acute symptoms of withdrawal are past, use iboga to restore your energy and eliminate the lingering depression, lack of energy, hot flashes, etc.

For many years, my problem was not going through withdrawal, but was staying away from opiates during the dreary, leaden weeks that followed.  I see no reason why smaller doses (<=2g TA or <=600mg ibogaine HCl) would not have enabled me to stay off opiates.

In a recent conversation with Sara Glatt, she recommended using doses of 200mg TA weekly or bi-weekly after an initial higher dose for depression, instead of daily micro doses.  That same regime might work to counter the lingering withdrawal symptoms that get so tedious.

Again, glad you found our humble Forum.  I wish you every success in your healing journey!

Peace, Love & Healing,

Eon T McKnight
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: uncannee on July 02, 2010, 10:44:02 PM
Welcome sassyfrass....i'm new too...and a canuck as well.....
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: sassyfras on July 03, 2010, 02:19:10 AM
Thank you for the welcome, Mr. McKnighty! And for the link to your post...not only very interesting but very well written~~~I'm a little in awe at the quality of the posts here! I'm beginning to think that Iboga truly IS good for the human brain. Or were all you people just naturally talented & smart even before partaking of Iboga? I'm quite serious in asking this! I know that my poor old brain could use a good clean & a tune up....all in good time though.

I'm on day 6 of microdosing root bark, 250 -300mg. per day, except on the third day I felt inspired to take a bit more and I swallowed 750mg. I was totally surprised when a half hour later I began to feel that familiar rushing throughout my body & mind that for me always heralds the onset of a psychedelic journey. I sure wasn't expecting that, I just wanted to get more Iboga in me. No visions, nothing heavy duty at all, just what I'd call a heightened state of awareness, flowers lit up from within, sounds, sights, tastes, tactile stuff all definitely enhanced...things having either more or less or different meanings than usual.

Unfortunately I've been far too busy during these past 6 days to keep any kind of accurate record of my opiate usage. I feel as if my tolerance is down some, I've noticed mostly that I seem to be able to space my dosages further apart plus I'm definitely feeling more cheerful & hopeful. I'll try to keep better track, maybe pack along a notebook. I get so frustrated with people who don't keep good clear records of their herbal experiments & here I am guilty of just that...

Hey Uncannee (nice name!), I just posted to your thread. Always nice to find another person in a forum who knows where B.C. is....doesn't seem to happen very often.
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: sassyfras on July 03, 2010, 02:40:14 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot to add that I've been chewing the root bark instead of washing it down in capsules...just a small way of showing respect for this plant teacher. I chew it & hold it in my mouth ( & a bit under my tongue just in case it absorbs sublingually) until the taste reaches it's peak & then I swallow it with a bit of water. I usually meditate during this time, about half an hour.

Although the taste is not one that would be considered wonderful by the decadent palates of most Westerners, I find it an interesting taste and am not repelled by it in the least......not like the taste of, say, kratom or kava...both of which literally gag me!
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: GratefulDad on July 03, 2010, 02:44:20 AM
Well I ate 4g the 27th, as I said above.  Then I did 2 grams the 28th, 2 grams the 29th, then 4 grams on the 30th, took two days off, and did some LSD.  I did have a couple beers, but nothing for a buzz, just had a couple with what I ate, then ate LSD, and didn't want any more drinks..  I don't really like the effects of alcohol much, with iboga..  I do still get the urge to have a drink sometimes.  I mean I never had a drinking problem, but I am very cautious.  But, I feel wonderful, pretty much all the time.  Every day I wake up happy to be alive and interested in what the day might bring.  Iboga is like the fountain of youth or something, lol...

BTW, I did chew some bark too, and after you do it a bit, it's not so bad..  But still, for more than a couple grams, it's much nicer to just toss and wash, and it has nothing to do with respect!  LOL
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: sassyfras on July 03, 2010, 02:28:31 PM
Haha, I'll definitely be using capsules once I work with larger amounts, Dad! Chewing 30 grams of root bark isn't on my list of fun stuff to do, I just wanted to be familiar with what I'm ingesting.

Are you planning to keep on dosing with Iboga the way you're doing now? Do you think it's going to build up in your system to the point where you start feeling jittery...or will the days in between of not dosing be enough to prevent that? I've just never heard of anyone doing Iboga as often as you are, but you sure sound good!!!
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: x on July 03, 2010, 03:18:55 PM
"Oh yeah, I forgot to add that I've been chewing the root bark instead of washing it down in capsules...just a small way of showing respect for this plant teacher. I chew it & hold it in my mouth ( & a bit under my tongue just in case it absorbs sublingually) until the taste reaches it's peak & then I swallow it with a bit of water. I usually meditate during this time, about half an hour."

Good on ya, sassy!

Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: GratefulDad on July 03, 2010, 03:23:07 PM
Yeah, I was even gonna eat some today, but I need to sleep off some of the left over buzz from the LSD..  I will probably eat some more bark tomorrow.  I don't get too much residual stimulation, and after eating it for days, I ended up sleeping just fine, even better than usual.  It seems to be fine taking a few days off, but I am pretty new, and still experimenting.  I am also the kind of person who isn't hindered in my daily activities, by tripping.  I don't drive, or anything, so I don't put anyone at risk, and I can manage doing just about anything tripping..  I'll keep everyone posted on how my experiments turn out, and how I feel..
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: Nganga Nobunoni + on July 04, 2010, 01:44:26 PM
Heya, sassy. I posted the link to the article you reference over on riverhaven's intro thread. It's great info, to be sure. Want to post it here, as well: http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v15n1/iboga21.pdf

Nobu was talking about how microdoses are different than a flood, that it's the flood that resets. You cartainly CAN take RB before a flood. The effects are still being evaluated by many, we're all learning as we go.
I have given RB to a handful of people now preflood, as an introduction to the spirit of Iboga, and as a way for the body to prepare, to recognize the chemical signature of Iboga. From my limited sample, I have seen 1/3 of the people (addicts and psychospiritual, both) say they feel no effects at all. Another third notices some effect, colors brighter, or an uplifted mood. The final third have a noticeable experience, auditory changes, psychological or spiritual revelation (the AHA! moment), intense thoughts, sleep interruption. The dosing on this has been between 500mg-1g RB.

I'll be reporting on TA use at about 2g (approx 600mg in HCl terms) here in the near future, both for myself and a couple other people. No-one actively addicted, though two I intend to see through the experience have never taken a flood dose. I'll keep you posted. I know also that Claudio Naranjo used these mid size therapeutic doses with his patients...there's an article somewhere...

:D
Tia



You got to push long and hard to get 18 months "Clear" with Iboga' and Ibogaine HCL shall no do the job required' unless you take a massive dose'
Ibogaine HCL is woosh in woosh out' it only lasts 5-7 days' 10 IF YOU ARE LUCKY'

Total Alkaloid if administered correctly can give from 1 year to 18 months totaly clear of everything'

The problem here is these reports are using Ibogaine HCL' they should be using full spectrum Iboga alks! (Tut Tut' poor show folks)

Blessings and Light'

Nobu +

P.S. Just finished reading the report'
All I can say is' folks need to learn Iboga and stop fuckin around with "Isolates"
Ibogaine HCL works but it has a very short window' 5- 10 days max' also the dosing regime here is out of wack'

If you must use Ibogaine HCL then you start off at 75-100mg a day for 5 days' then you cut down to 50-75mg a day for five days' (N' obviousley reduce opiate intake) then after this 10 day period' 10-15 mg a day for 10 days' then wash out for a week' then back to 75-100mg a day and reduce the opiate again'
Keep this regime up for how ever long it takes you to kick the opiate'

They got the 21 days correct at no being able to ingest more Ibogaine cos of the metabolite 12 hydroxy-ibogamine has got you "Wired" (7-10 days off then you can go back to micro-dosing')

These reports should be full spectrum' no just Ibogaine HCL' of all the work I have done I actualy have little faith in Ibogaine HCL'

An account'

I was withdrawing from 500mg Heroin one day and 250mg the next day' then 125mg for the rest of the week'

I necked 1000mg of Ibogaine HCL' it killed the withdrawal for 48 hours' then the body pain beat the shit out of me' even though my pupils where half pinned on Ibogaine'
I took 500mg Ibogaine HCL' it got me stoned but did shit all for the full body pain'
I ate five grams Iboga root bark plus 90mg of codiene and the pain subsided'
By the 72 hour mark of abstaining from heroin' the pain finaly stopped' I had no depression' was hungry as living sin' and angry as HELL' and had to drink valerian tea for 3 days in order to operate normaly'

In my book' Ibogaine HCL sucks' UNLESS YOU TAKE MASSIVE AMOUNTS' DOSES OF 21-30MG/KG DO THE JOB' ANY DOSE BELOW 15MG/KG' (DEPENDING UPON BODY WEIGHT) ONLY WORKD FOR 48 HOURS' AND THIS IS NO SOMEONE WITH A BIG TIME USING' JUST A WEEK OF A FEW DAYS INTO DOUBLE FIGURES'

On another occasion I had been using 250mg of heroin every other day for 9 days' and blowing the silver paper tube on the off day!
I ingested 18 grams of Iboga rootbark' it killed everything and just left me sleepless for 4 days'

On another occasion i had been using little bits of heroin for relief of sciatic pain' possibly 6-7 days at 150mg a day! no enough to light up the head' but enough to get past the numbing pain'
I ingested 700mg oF Ibogaine HCL' it took away my head depression and strange head ache/BODY AGGITATIONS' and left me with severe withdrawl pain for 9 hours at the tail end of 72 hour detox'
I then ingested 4 grams of Iboga rootbark each day for 3 days' for residuaL paws' Job done!

So to draw your own conclusions from the reports of this guinee pig :)))

Bliss!
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: x on July 04, 2010, 04:02:13 PM
Dammit, I replied then walked away, didn't hit 'post' now it's gone.

NobuGuineaPig, love to you, and thank you for always being so free and detailed with your experiences.

I would not now use just HCl with a person, I would consider it a disservice. I still find it very effective at blowing out opiates.
Worked with one man with HCl, who has HCl boosters. Did fine, and is doing well with it. 6 months out now. But TA or RB would benefit in the extreme.

So good to hear on low dose detox. That is something I currently have no direct experience with.

:D
Tia

Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: riverhaven on July 04, 2010, 04:23:24 PM
Sassyfras has multiple medical issues and we have discussed it at length on another forum we are on.  She'd be a tough case to flood and I feel an ICU trained physician should monitor her-- which would be me-- we just need to schedule my trip in my new used RV up to beautiful Canada when it isn't too cold or my soulmate won't go and help us LOL...  She's been our group's lab rat on the microdosing and figuring out the dose that lets her drop her oxy dose.  Eon- I am not sure she can completely drop it-- there are chronic pain patients and she is one who will always need some dose of narcs.  What they don't need is the ever building tolerance and if microdosing can help her do that we have done her a big favor.

We have several ladies on the board interested in an iboga detox which I am willing to monitor-- I'd be interested in all you experiences monitoring these, your dosages, how you give them etc.  I just have what I can google and what Sara did for me. 
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: sassyfras on July 04, 2010, 05:30:02 PM
River is right, I'd likely be a bit of a worry to anyone without the level of medical training she has if I were to do a flood dose. I certainly haven't ruled out that possibility....but I'd want to have my gastrointestinal system in the best shape possible (for me that is) before doing this. That worries me more than potential heart complications, especially after my recent experience with aspiration pneumonia which landed me in the hospital for a week. I had been vomiting quite violently for over 2 hours & I actually passed out because it exhausted me so badly & that is when I must have gotten some in my lungs. ( I had my gallbladder removed in 2002 & I sure regret doing so now because I've had so many digestive issues since, esp. after I was started on opiates....the 14 months I spent on methadone being the worst for that!) But I've learned ways of controlling my gastro issues with diet & some supplements~~~I'm feeling surprisingly good lately & I wonder if the microdoses of root bark are helping with this too?

Nobu, thank you so much for the interesting details in your post! I have decided to stay with the root bark and perhaps the TA somewhere down the road....I just have a better feeling about ingesting the whole spectrum of alkaloids. I am now on day 8 of eating 250 - 300mg root bark, taking it early each morning. Up until now I've been too busy to keep track of how this microdosing is affecting my opiate tolerance but I'm making an effort now to do so. So far today I've noticed that I'm definitely able to go longer between doses, about 1 1/2 - 2 hours longer & although I'm still taking the same amount, at the end of the day I will have taken less opiate than usual. I've also noticed that while I'm not getting that familiar little *buzz* from my opiate dose, I feel generally more even, more balanced. As if the extreme "spikes", the highs & lows of  the opiate use are kind of leveling out if that makes sense.

So my idea was to continue doing this daily until I run up against that "wall" that was described in the microdosing article & then I'll stop taking the Iboga for 7 - 10 days before starting up again. Hopefully I will be able to get my tolerance way down doing this over the course of a few months~~~~and of course I would love to be able to stop the opiates completely, which may or may not be realistic for me, given the severity of the pain flare-ups I get. But I often have several weeks of relatively little pain so I'm not giving up on the possibility of being opiate free again!

Have any of you ever heard of anyone who was able to successfully quit opiates by microdosing Iboga? And Nobu....please tell me if I should be doing the microdosing differently....it's all still very new to me. Oh yeah, I've been meaning to ask about the differences between root bark from different sources. I recently got my order of 5 grams root bark from Gabon and another 5 grams root bark from Cameroon, both from "Reset Nu". Now the root bark from Gabon looks identical to the root bark I got from Shamanic X a few weeks ago, but the root bark from Cameroon looks (&smells) quite different. It is darker, almost with a reddish tint and it smells like some kind of incense...a very perfumey smell. Is that normal? ( The root bark from Gabon is a fairly light, tannish color.)
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 04, 2010, 05:50:12 PM
Hi Sassy,

My apologies that I did not read your posts closely enough to realize that you are unable to totally eliminate opiates.

Back in the days when I was using opiates, I found that DL Phenylalanine (DLPA) was helpful for extending the duration of their effects.  It is thought, as I recall, that it works by increasing natural endorphins by blocking their enzymatic degradation.  It seemed to work with opiates, too.

If you do try it, be sure to take it on a completely empty stomach and wait an hour before eating so the DLPA is not degraded by digestive enzymes.

That's all I can suggest for now, and seeing how actively you are working on the subject, it is likely that you have already tried it.

~et
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: sassyfras on July 04, 2010, 11:48:39 PM
No worries, Eon, it's taking me a while to figure out who everyone here is and where they are in their journeys re opiates, alcohol,etc. & with  Iboga too. I guess I have a kind of "reverse" denial in that I don't want to believe that I will need opiates for the rest of my life, lol....and yes, I've been pretty actively seeking ways of getting free by gentler, perhaps more gradual methods...or at the very least lowering my tolerance as much as possible. I haven't tried DLPA yet, so thank you for that suggestion!
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: koko on July 05, 2010, 01:07:54 AM
heyyall,i took about 2-3oomg of aihab's TA as an experiment yesterday ,as i am getting ready to detox off about a 4 month habit,and i was floored,literally,i even got ataxia from it,no visuals,but some audio distortion too,lasted 4 hours. i havent done ibogaine in 5 years.i want more-shell
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 05, 2010, 11:34:52 AM
Sassy,

It makes me feel good to think that something I have written might be of help to you!

While DLPA is fairly well know for its pain relieving properties, its ability to potentiate opiates is not.  That is just my observation based upon personal experimentation.

I had never thought that DLPA's opiate potentiation would be a good thing to share here on the Forum, since most come here to off of opiates.

I have done a fair amount of investigation and work with precursor & amino acid treatments  --  if I can be of any help, please let me know.

~et

PS to koko  --  Glad you found our humble forum, WELCOME!     ~Eon
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: sassyfras on July 06, 2010, 03:02:02 PM
Well Eon, I think it's perfectly acceptable to share info about DLPA here, since anything that potentiates opiates can be used to lower the amount needed. I find it interesting that Iboga is not potentiating the oxys in the sense of giving them more of a *buzz*  at all, but simply by levelling out the highs & lows & allowing me to go for longer between doses. I'm very grateful for that....I'm SO tired of that damn opiate roller coaster effect with it's attendant anxiety! I love it that I can go for hours now without even thinking about my next dose....

Are there different kinds of DLPA? Any you would suggest? Is there a good internet vendor or should I just get some from my health food store? I really do appreciate your knowledge & advice, Eon. I hope you are experiencing less anxiety too, as that is one of the worst symptoms for me, esp. when my opiate levels are getting low. I can't even imagine what my life would be like today if I hadn't started learning about various ethnos & supplements, I would very probably be back on methadone because that's what happens to people here if they come in for early refills. Learning about kratom saved me from that, and now learning about Iboga is saving me from kratom, lol & possibly opening a door to eventual freedom from opiates. I am convinced that most, if not all of my debilitating symptoms are due to messed up neurotransmitters, causing dramatically increased pain perception & extreme fatigue.....I believe that the condition known as chronic fatigue syndrome is actually just a state of down regulated dopamine production, so I am hopeful that Iboga will help re-balance things for me.

I would love to hear more about your work with precursors & amino acid therapy too. I've mostly worked with various ethnos and supplements such as kava, rhodiola, maca root & am presently using a very nice couple of products for healing digestive issues called RevitalX & Detoxitech. Since most of our opiate receptors are in our digestive system I believe it's a good place to start the healing process.
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 06, 2010, 05:11:26 PM
Well ya know, sassy, maybe I was hesitant to bring the subject up since I had used DLPA to maintain my jag...

Only one kind of DLPA, to the best of my knowledge.  It is, however, different from L-phenylalanine.  LPA does NOT do the same thing re: opiates or pain.

DLPA is a 50:50 mix of the D and L isomers.  Just plain phenylalanine is usually just the L isomer and you don't want that.

I go to iherb.com for most of my supplements, they are cheap, fast and reliable.  Now and Jarrow are good brands.

AWK!  Just got a call from an old 'friend' selling 15mg Dilaudid  --  And I said "None of that shit for me!"  I'm so proud of meself!  Maybe I am learning...

I have tried boosting dopamine levels with a combination of tyrosine and phenylalanine (both the L and DL varieties) and had very mixed results.  Sometimes the pleasurable dopamine effects would be felt, other times I got stimulation without any rosy glow at all  --  which could be downright unpleasant.  Tyrosine is also a precursor for norepinephrine.

It seemed that I would only get the pleasant dopamine effects if I was already feeling pretty good.  When I was feeling low-down and no-good, I would end up on the other end of the spectrum.

DLPA, though, definitely helped with low levels of pain and helped to maintain a good mental state.  The problem with it is that it must be taken on an empty stomach daily for effects to build up.  I have stopped taking it post-iboga since I want to rely only on my unmodified transmitters/receptors on a day-to-day basis.

~et
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: haleyJ on July 06, 2010, 10:28:52 PM
Hi there Sassy! You too, Koko!

Eon, you hit on the very question I am asking myself tonight!  Do I continue with my amino therapy ( I'm newly opie free ) while I explore
the healing properties of Iboga?  And I do include DLPA in my 2x daily amino regimine. 
Today I re-started micro-dosing RB and it almost felt like my amino's somehow didn't resonate to well with the Iboga.
I'm thinking I should stop all aminos/supplements that I take for PAWS and let the Ibo do its job?

Thanks for letting me post here Sassy....
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: koko on July 07, 2010, 12:45:30 AM
hi haleyj!!-koko
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: harveyplex on July 07, 2010, 04:44:22 AM
Hello
Haleyj
I am glad you are here .
- hP ;)
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: riverhaven on July 07, 2010, 11:04:27 AM
Woohoo Haley is here!!!

Well once again-- DLPA will increase serotonin as will ibogaine-- although not so much with microdosing.  Plus Haley is on other serotonin enhancing products.  You run into the possiblity of serotonergic syndrome which is NONE too fun...Trust me-- been there, done it.  You think you are dying.
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 07, 2010, 11:17:30 AM
Hi Haley and welcome!

I hesitate to suggest what treatment plan you should follow.  While there is some research that has been done re: the effects of iboga on neurotransmitters, it is still in its infancy and of course was performed on lab rats, not human beings.

Similarly, research into amino acid precursor therapy is sketchy.  Some depressed people have been found to have significantly lower levels of tryptophan in their blood, but what does that mean for you?

I am, however, happy to tell you what I have been doing and why.  I have stopped using tyrosine and L-phenylalanine for raising dopamine levels because they weren't consistently effective and because research indicates that iboga restores healthy dopaminergic function by increasing levels of GDNF, a hormone that stimulates growth of dopamine receptors.  I just wanted to let the iboga do its work without muddying the water, so to speak.

Plus, there were times that the tyrosine and phenylalalnine combination would aggravate anxiety that I have been struggling to deal with.

Since I am not in pain, I also stopped using DL-phenylalanine so that opiate/endorphin receptors could recover to the natural state.

I still use L-tryptophan on occasion for sleeping.

I am afraid that I am not a good iboga poster boy because even though it did help immensely, ongoing situational anxiety has cost me a fair share of the progress I made.  Once the external triggers of anxiety and depression have been resolved, though, I expect to get back on track.

Hope this helped!     ~ Eon
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: GratefulDad on July 07, 2010, 11:47:51 AM
I have no experience with amino acid therapies or anything, but I do have a little with iboga.  Iboga in a proper dose does seem to try and balance the brain chemistry.  Seems to reset all the screwy things we've done to our brains, and if given the chance, will fix a whole lot of our problems.  The microdosing, and stuff seems to be beneficial, but I think it all works best if you can, and do, get a proper flood, then just microdose, or take small boosters as needed for whatever ails you after, aside from physical injuries..  I am not a doctor, or a scientist.  I am not a shaman, or a medicine man, but I do plenty of experimentation on myself, so I can tell you how it seems to work for me only.  I hope iboga can assist you the way it has me..
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: sassyfras on July 07, 2010, 12:56:06 PM
Well hello there Miss Haley...so good to see you here!!! I know you'll love this place with it's friendly, always helpful & caring members. and you just go ahead & post on my thread any old time you like...
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: niceboat on July 07, 2010, 12:57:52 PM
Quote
Iboga in a proper dose does seem to try and balance the brain chemistry.  Seems to reset all the screwy things we've done to our brains, and if given the chance, will fix a whole lot of our problems.

GratefulDad,

By proper dose, you meant full dose am I right or? which last 3 days...

I like the reset part, is it a dose one could do it alone, which would last at least 24 hours or less and not more?

thanks
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: GratefulDad on July 07, 2010, 01:37:45 PM
Yeah, pretty much, a good 30+ hours tripping.  I would say the heaviest part is done in about 8-12 hours, but the rest of it will linger for days.  I feel iboga for weeks or months, honestly.  Even in low doses like 2-4 grams of bark over a few days, it builds up and I can still feel it a week later..  But 3 days is about what you'll need before you'll really want to have to deal with anything.  You can function if necessary before 3 days, but I really wouldn't want to.
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: haleyJ on July 07, 2010, 04:04:28 PM
Thanks for the helpful replys!  I will start my own introduction thread soon, so I'm not taking away from my wonderful friend Sassy's thread!
Peace, Love, and light.....
Haley
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: roy d on July 08, 2010, 07:10:15 AM

Hi Sassyfra:

Your description of CFS fits me to a "T".  I
thought it was just me "chronic PAWS"  I
would quit but it would seem like the wd
symptoms would persist.

I have noticed the older you get the harder
the kick.  If you can get very low you may
be able to kick on one gram of HCL.  There
is a big difference between 1gm and 1.5gm,
very big.  I was buzzed for a good two weeks.

Wishing you good luck,

 Roy
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: sassyfras on July 09, 2010, 11:14:59 AM
Yeah Roy, I'm afraid that for some of us who have an underlying condition such as CFS, we just end up staying in a protracted state of paws after we quit opiates. If we go to AA/NA meetings they tell us to "keep coming to meetings, it will get better if we work the steps." But we can work the steps till we're blue in the face but nothing is going to get better unless this underlying imbalance is addressed. I've seen it too many times....these people who just were not getting better & their AA buddies telling them that this was due to their not working the program diligently enough, or that they weren't honest enough. Small wonder that after months of this most of these people relapse. No one should ever be expected to live in the bleak, black hopeless state called paws/CFS for weeks & months & longer.

If there was as much $$$ spent researching addiction & paws as there is for cancer, I'm sure that the medical profession would soon begin to awaken to the fact that many health conditions, from CFS to MS & Parkinson's disease all have low dopamine levels & symptoms are greatly improved by opiates or better still L.D.N.( low dose naltrexone ), which stimulates the body to make more of it's own endogenous opioids.

When I look back at how my CFS started, the parallels between that & paws are very obvious. As is the case with so many people with CFS, my own bout began with a severe case of the flu...a flu more severe than any I'd ever had before. This "flu" was identical to the acute stage of opiate withdrawal (I had never taken opiates/opioids at that time). This happened during a long, extremely stressful & difficult part of my life and I now see it as the time when my nervous system was finally overwhelmed and unable to produce the crucial endogenous opioids any longer. This "flu" went on for about 2 weeks, & then the acute symptoms gradually changed to the bleak "lead suit" symptoms identical to paws. The fact that I had tried so many different alternative & allopathic treatments with no relief whatsoever, but had immediate & nearly total resolution of all symptoms when I was finally given opiates is evidence enough for me!

Yeah, Roy, it's so true that it gets more & more difficult to quit opiates as we get older. The longer we've been using opiates, the more we've compromised our body's own dopamine production and our bodies make less of of it as we age too, making "recovery" an almost impossible task for some of us. Learning about Iboga has given me the first real glimmer of hope since I first realized what being "opiate dependent" actually meant. I'm doing very well with my microdosing experiment, am on day 11 today & am stabilizing nicely on my actual prescribed dosage of oxycontin, which is about 2/3 of what I was using before Iboga. Although I've managed to bring my tolerance this low before without Iboga, it would take me a couple of very miserable weeks during which I would be unable to function normally, be extremely depressed & unmotivated. With Iboga it's been completely painless.

Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 09, 2010, 11:58:32 AM
Sassy & Roy,

Do you ever have good days where the lead-suit symptoms are not present?  In the depths of my depression, before iboga's help, I might go for 2 weeks in the pits, but every now and then I would awake in the morning feeling bright and happy.  I'd say to myself:  "I'm well again!"  However, the next day would find me down in the pits again...

Does that sort of thing ever happen to you?     ~et
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: Calaquendi on July 09, 2010, 02:01:46 PM
Quote
No one should ever be expected to live in the bleak, black hopeless state called paws/CFS for weeks & months & longer.

My point of view exactly, sassy. I think I have said that very thing, verbatim, more than once. I came to iboga tail-in-hand like many of us do, and I frankly didn't believe it would work. Not until I saw it happen before my eyes with my friend kicking methadone. I was astonished. For me (and many others) it was the fear of the acute withdrawal that precipitated my interest in ibogaine, but not until after I experienced it was I aware of the real gold - I had managed to kick through a few days of acute wd before, only to succumb to the hideous symptoms of PAWS - those lingering fucking evil thoughts, severe depression, physical malaise, all of it....and it can go on FOREVER. Iboga cut this to pieces. There simply was no real post acute symtoms, at least, nothing at all like the duration and severity I would have experienced without the healing hand of eboka being present. For about three months after my first flood I was 'guarded' and 'guided' as it seemed, by the residual spirit of this medicine. At the risk of sounding hokey and all like, new agey, I really DO believe this stuff has a spirit, and it will work with us if we will it. Glad to hear of your progress - it's good for all of us! Keep going!  :)
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: riverhaven on July 09, 2010, 02:18:57 PM
First off Sassy-- I am quite jealous at how many more pages your intro is than mine-- Apparently you are FAR more interesting LOL....

Did you know that CFS is often associated with chronic infection with EBV-- the virus that causes Mono-- I am betting that flu you got was Mono and then like me--- your body never got rid of the mono-- it doesn't lie dormant in nerves like it does in a lot of people ( like chicken pox/shingles does)-- but is in your blood and causes the CFS symptoms.  Interesting.......
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: roy d on July 09, 2010, 02:29:49 PM
Hi Sas,

I first experienced CFS when I was in Texas.
I went from working and working out in the
gym to being almost useless.  I would eat
half a can of soup at lunch and have the other
half for dinner.  I wanted to change the oil in
the car and it took me three months.  I also
was losing weight as well as not eating. That
along with constant diarrhea can do a number
on ya.

I kept wondering when the wd was going to end.
It is strange how if you take some opiates it
disappears.  Since it disappears with  opiates
I though it was a long wd.  And like you say
the depression is  severe.  You say you
tried everything and nothing worked, I did
too and nothing worked.  It finally let up but
I still have it.  Some doctors do not believe
in CFS, I believe mine thinks it is my liver
with Hep C and there is nothing they can
do about it, I went through the interferon
treatment which did not help.

Guess I will have to live with it.  But it is
nice to know it is not wd or all in my head.
I wish I knew then what I know now as
that would of helped.  There is not much
I could of done but it would  be nice to
know what I was up against.  I remember
telling the doctor if the house caught on
fire my daughter would have to carry me
out of the house.  People would not believe
the fatigue - unlike any fatigue they may
have experienced.  Really, it's extream.

Enjoyed talking with ya,

 Roy
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 09, 2010, 06:16:14 PM
Y'all might find an article in the June Discover magazine of interest (The Insanity Virus, pg 58).  Seems like new evidence links both MS and schizophrenia to viral infections.  The same thing may be happening with CFS (and that's just my very wild guess).

What is really interesting is that the virus they have IDed is an endogenous retrovirus (ERV).  ERVs are leftovers from ancient retrovirus infections that are in all of our chromosomes  --  yeah, they're in every cell of our bodies.

While they are usually inactivated (do not express), they can become active as the result of another infection such as EBV.  It seems that the inflammation/stress from another illness defeats the mechanisms that prevent the ERV from being expressed.  Also, they theorize, environmental toxins could enable expression.

An ancient Chinese medicinal, artemesinin, is being tested as a treatment for schiophrenia and might be tested for use against MS.  Artemesinin is also a cure for malaria and has shown antiviral and antiparasitical action on a number of other pathogens, including at least one variety of Hep C.  It is possible that it could help CFS.

The Discover article did not list any references, but I could pull out some of the researchers' names if you are interested.

That CFS sound like a truly rotten condition  --  here's hopin' ya beat it!

~eon
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: Calaquendi on July 09, 2010, 09:06:07 PM
Awesome stuff Eon! I'd heard of this article but had forgotten where to locate it - seems very interesting. Artemesinin sounds like something worth looking into.
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: koko on July 09, 2010, 10:33:53 PM
yeah river,i have heard for some time about cfs & viral etiology,kinda accepted among the folks i work with,thay also speak about conduct disorder & antisocials being inherited traits,now thats scary!!lol,cant type much-shell
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: roy d on July 10, 2010, 10:26:02 AM

Quote
That CFS sound like a truly rotten condition  --  here's hopin' ya beat it!

Yea, it is not a little tired it is more like
getting run over by a steam roller.  And
you go from dr to dr and they test your
blood and everything is fine, nothing
they can do for you, maybe a shrink can
help you.  Then you can't tell the dr that
opiates help for they will say that is
what's causing it.  I noticed when I took
opiates I would feel better in an hour
or so, not great but better.  It is much
like wd lasting a year or more.  I was
talking to a person with Lyme disease
and asked what the symptoms were
and she listed quite a few and I had
maybe 90% of them and asked my
dr to test me for Lyme and he did so,
came back negative.  Trust me it is
not in my head.

I did some checking on the net and
they sell artemesinin on the net. 
Does anyone know how long it takes
to work, has anyone been helped by
it?  Any ifo would be appreciated.

Thanks,

 Roy
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 10, 2010, 10:49:45 AM
Sassy & Roy,

I have read and re-read you descriptions of CFS and they really got to me.  While I seriously doubt that I have CFS, the symptoms I experience during periods of deep depression are very similar to what you describe, and I can sympathize with you two.  There is something that I would like to share with you on the chance that it may help.

As I mentioned in the Anxiety Topic, I have ordered moclobemide to help with anxiety and depression.  I used it for a couple of months before iboga treatment and found that it brightened my mood, gave me energy and reduced anxiety.  At the time, I felt that it provided a very mild stimulant effect.  Unlike speed or even coffee, though, it did not get me wired or manic.  Looking back, it was more like getting my 'normal' energy back, which just seemed like being stimulated compared to my previous depressed state.

Like you, Roy, I cannot use SSRIs or SNRIs due to side effects.  Even if I just accepted the side effects, they did not help me to feel much better.  With moclobemide, however, I had no side effects aside from insomnia at large doses.  And even the insomnia was not that unpleasant because I was relaxed and feeling good even though I could not sleep.  By stepping my doses back and taking it first thing in the morning and at noon, the insomnia went away.

I won't go on and on here  --  I am certainly not a moclobemide salesman.  If you have any interest in discussing the subject, I will be glad to share what I have experienced and read.

Wishing you well!       ~eon
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: sassyfras on July 11, 2010, 01:30:01 AM
Wow, what an interesting collection of posts here in response to my last one! Unfortunately I am overwhelmed with matters in my life right now and just don't have the time to address all the cool stuff y'all have brought up~~~~but I promise I will come back & do so at my first opportunity. I want to thank each one of you for contributing so much insight & knowledge to this very important topic. CFS is utterly debilitating and can change your life overnight in many cases. It's just the way Roy describes...it's not just tiredness....it is the most profound fatigue a person could ever imagine, but if you've ever experienced really wicked PAWS you'll have at least an idea of what it's like. I've personally known 3 people with CFS who committed suicide & suicide was my own sweetest fantasy for over 3 years. Having a son still at home who was dependent on me is the ONLY thing that stopped me. CFS is that bad. And it's far more widespread than people know....& who knows how many undiagnosed CFS sufferers there are?

My case is kind of interesting because it took for me to experience lengthy periods of both CFS and PAWS (at different times) to recognize that these conditions were virtually identical. It is baffling to me that no one else, esp doctors, has seen this....if a person in a state of severe PAWS went to see a doctor & if this doctor wasn't told about the PAWS, the doctor would order a slew of tests. All of them would come back negative and eventually the patient would be given a diagnosis of CFS. The treatments & prescription drugs for both conditions are identical too...ssris, neuroleptics like neurontin, soma, etc. none of which really do much good.

Well, it's late & I'm falling asleep here. I 'll come back to continue with this discussion asap!
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: roy d on July 20, 2010, 11:30:28 AM

Hi Eon,

Sorry I missed your post when you asked "Do you ever have good days where the lead-suit symptoms are not present?

I went months without a good day.  Imagine eating a can of soup for lunch and the other half for dinner, losing weight, diarrhea constantly sometimes it may fade away but then comes back.  In a way it seems similar to the mono virus but I would say it is much stronger.

You said you fell fatigue when you get depressed, that is normal.  When you are suffering from depression you have low energy levels.  Depression can make ya sleep more or sometimes you can not sleep.
But CRF is more than just fatigue and depression.  It is like your third
or fourth day on w/d.  I thought that it was opiates from six months ago and wondered when it would let up.  I noticed I felt better when I took opiates - yes strange, I know.  Now if you were a Dr and I said to you DR. I need some opiates because when I don't take them I get sick and tired what do ya think the Dr will say?  Right - kick the habit dude, I'm not giving you anything.  The symptoms are Exactly like w/d - Exactly.

It really is nice to know that others noticed how opiates make ya feel better - no joking, really.

Take Care Eon,

 Roy
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: sassyfras on July 20, 2010, 01:58:32 PM
Yeah, Roy, the similarity between opiate withdrawals and CFS is so striking that I can't believe no one in the medical field has written about that! Or even noticed it? But them again, if I hadn't suffered with CFS (undiagnosed) for so long (before opiates) and then some years later going cold turkey after I'd been on opiates for a couple of years, I probably wouldn't have made the connection either.

I wore that lead suit every single day for nearly 3 years. CFS literally brought me to my knees. I was like, "Lord, kill me or heal me, I can't go on like this". Walking from one room to the next left me breathless & dizzy. But after one week on opiates I was out walking first a half mile, then a mile and soon I was running again. But you're right, no doctor would give us opiates to treat the symptoms of CFS, no way! Opiates are for treating pain, period.

I'm glad that you've made that connection too, Roy. Have you ever thought about going on an LDN regimen? Many people with CFS/FM have said that it's the only treatment that's ever helped with their symptoms....which makes total sense, of course, since what LDN does is stimulate your body into making up to 200 -300% more endogenous opioids. I sure wish I'd have known about that before I went on opiates!!! From everything I've learned these last years I believe the LDN and Iboga hold the most hope for us.
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 20, 2010, 04:17:17 PM
Roy, thanks for answering that for me.  During the depths of depression I have wondered if I had CFS.  I no longer think that is the case.  BTW, both you and Sassy have my sympathy.  Having had the 'pleasure' of experiencing both deep depression and withdrawal, the thought of those symptoms going on and on makes me shudder.

Sassy, does LDN stand for Low Dose Narcotic?  Do you think that there is something different about CFS that would not require dose escalation?  Opies were way too slippery of a slope for me when trying to relieve depression.

My Best 2 U 2,

Eon

Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: GratefulDad on July 20, 2010, 04:22:01 PM
LDN is Low Dose Naltrexone.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_dose_naltrexone    It is an opiate antagonist, which in low doses, blocks endogenous opioids.  This causes the body to produce more of it's own endogenous opioids, or from what I have read, that is my understanding.  Be glad to hear more about it, though, myself..
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 20, 2010, 11:44:25 PM
Thanks, Dad.  They didn't say in wiki; can you get high from naltrexone?

"Low Dose Naltrexone has not been approved for use by the FDA."  What does that mean, ya gotta use lots to keep Big Pharma happy?  (Pardon me, is my cynicism showing?)

There has been recent research that shows gluten causes leaky gut resulting in systemic inflammation in something like 133 people in a thousand  --  a huge number, epidemiologically.  Have either of you, Roy or Sassy, tried a gluten-free diet for a month or two?

I apologize for my lack of understanding re: CFS; is it possibly caused by inflammation  --  which could cause havoc elsewhere?

~eon
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: sassyfras on July 21, 2010, 02:10:41 AM
No, Eon, you definitely can't get high from naltrexone! Naltrexone is an opioid antagonist & GD gave a good explanation of how it works. The FDA approval was given for the old 50mg dose for treating opiate addiction....at that high dose naltrexone prevents any opiate/opioid from filing the receptors...it also prevents any chance the addict might have of simply feeling good even naturally. Not surprisingly, there wasn't a high degree of compliance with this drug.

But at the much lower doses of the LDN protocol, (1 - 4mg.) it has an entirely different mechanism of action in that it actually stimulates the body into producing MORE of it's own natural opioids. And small doses of an antagonist like naltrexone, when given along with an opiate, potentiate the analgesia/euphoria of the opiate and help prevent tolerance. Pain Therapeutics of California has been working on a formulation of oxycontin with a small dosage of naltrexone added to it that will be called "Oxytrex".

Big Pharma isn't the least bit interested in LDN because the patent on naltrexone ran out decades ago. There's no money to be made with LDN.

I found that a gluten free diet definitely helps the symptoms of leaky gut...I avoid gluten foods as much as possible. I don't think that inflammation is the cause of CFS, but then I haven't been keeping up with the latest findings re that. My symptoms are nearly 100% controlled by opiates.
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: roy d on July 21, 2010, 09:05:09 AM


Hi All,

Eon -  I had them check to see if I was allergic to gluten which came out negative.  It is a hard thing to prove as there is no virus, bacteria, antibody or damage to the liver or whatever.  It's as if you got to take the patients word for it.  Some dr do not believe it exist or chalk it up to depression or HEP C or even psychological problems.  There are multiple symptoms similar to Lyme disease. If I had leaky gut syndrome I believe they would of found it by now or maybe I would be dead, never heard of it before.

Oh, if your taking any kind of opiate, even cough syrup you should take
stay away from naltraxone - it really matters.

 Roy
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 21, 2010, 05:19:52 PM
Sassy, interesting info on LDN!  If it stimulates the body to produce more endorphins, it might be useful for depression.  Wonder if they tested LDN on recovering opie addicts.  Probably don't want to give it to those people if they could still get high on opies.

Ahh, no patent no profit.  I should have guessed.

Don't opies have anti-inflammatory properties?


Hiya Roy!

Have a Native American friend with sprue (Celiac disease), a genetically based allergy to gluten.  The docs thought he was just another drunk indian; he thought he had been run over by a fully loaded cement truck.  It took quite a while for one smart doc to realize that the genetic trait is somewhat common in NAs.  Sounds like what they put you through for CFS.

Good to see they have a test for gluten.  For those without medical insurance, just cutting out wheat, rye and barley for a month should tell you if you're one of the sorely afflicted...     ;)

~et
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: sassyfras on July 22, 2010, 04:21:29 PM
Roy wrote:
"Oh, if your taking any kind of opiate, even cough syrup you should take
stay away from naltraxone - it really matters."

This is true with the full 50mg dose of naltrexone...taking that amount would definitely throw you into sever precipitated withdrawals if you were on opiates. But the 1 - 4mg. naltrexone doses used in LDN do NOT have that effect at all and actually potentiate the opiate & help prevent tolerance to it. A lot of people freak out just hearing the "naltrexone" word because of it's associations with withdrawals & so they don't even investigate it's potential in it's LDN form. I think it was over at Bluelight that a bunch of heroin users were talking about LDN & said that since they discovered that they never shoot up without adding in a small dose of naltrexone. They all agreed that their heroin use was greatly enhanced and lasted much longer as a result. 


Yes, Eon, it has been tested on depression and it helps a good deal. Since depression seems to be a big part of all the autoimmune illnesses this is an important benefit of LDN. I don't think they've tested LDN on recovering addicts....but I've heard that there are a few forward thinking addiction doctors who put all their opiate addicted patients on LDN after detox. And there was a long thread by a fellow who had weaned off of Suboxone & then started LDN. He was amazed at the energy he had & how great he was feeling just days after starting. It's such a shame that there is so little research or effort put into helping addicts~~~ that's just because the general consensus is still that addiction is primarily a character flaw, a moral weakness.

You asked : " Don't opies have anti-inflammatory properties? "

I'm not sure about that one, Eon. What I do know is that opiates strengthen the immune system...which is why opiate users seldom get sick...unless it's from poor lifestyle habits, esp among street addicts. I just read an interesting article comparing the use of opiates & NSAIDS for treating osteoarthritis.The opiates were found to be far more effective than the NSAIDS & had fewer negative side effects. I personally consider opiates to be an amazing medicine that can help many, many people regain functionality in their lives. It's a shame that they have been demonized so much and are so often withheld from people who really need them. I realize of course that there are people who flagrantly misuse/abuse opiates, but there are also many "high functioning" addicts who are able to live productive & worthwhile lives. Good science, good medicine falls to the wayside when uninformed opinions & prejudice take front row seats.


Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: riverhaven on July 22, 2010, 05:22:29 PM
Exactly Sassy- you hit the nail on the head.  We never get the level of research we need to help with addiction-- and it can affect so many people.  How many arthritics out there are there??  And with the baby boomers becoming old farts LOL-- there will be plenty more people needing pain relief from their old over used joints.  LDN would be a great thing to add to an arthritis regimen.   

Nal makes me nervous because you remember I had that odd reaction to it-- as did several other women I know of increasing the urge to drink.  I never have tried the low dose nal though-- I only was on the 50 mg to quit alcohol and then however much was in those CF5s. 
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 22, 2010, 06:16:21 PM
Thanks, Dad.  I goofed when posting.  I moved it to Meditation and Mental Control where I intended to put it.  ~eon
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: GratefulDad on July 22, 2010, 07:22:05 PM
I have been discussing something on the vox list that seemed to fit well in this topic.
Are you sure about that?  This was about needing opiates, low dose naltrexone, and ibogaine.  Not sure where exactly that all ties in with reaching a higher spiritual plane..
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: roy d on July 23, 2010, 06:11:30 PM

Hi Eon,

They do have a test for Celiac disease and as always things came out negative.

 Roy
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 23, 2010, 11:23:21 PM
In a way that's too bad Roy.  If it was celiac, the symptoms would be pretty easy to eliminate.

Did some scrounging and found a doc who claims success for refractory depression with LDN and SSRIs.  Me, SSRIs have nasty side effects and I keep away.  I am certain that it would not be a problem combining LDN with the moclobemide I'm taking.

I found that moclo decreased opiate side effects, gave me a longer ride and I needed less.  I'm not sure why; the moclo must be acting on some cascade substances since MAO does not chop up endorphins or opies.  (Or maybe it was all in my head?)

After about ~10 years of using opiates on and off (more on than off) a little bump of endo-opiates might be a good thing for me.  Since escalating the dose will not happen  --  due to the most unpleasant side effects  --   it doesn't scare me much.

Plus, once endorphin production is back up, it might stay that way after quitting Naltrexone.

I did a bit of searching, but could only find the 50mg version online w/ no scrip needed.  That would require splitting up each pill into ~20 equal parts!  Though, one pill dissolved in 200ml would give you 20 portions of 10ml = 2.5mg Naltrexone.

Heres's a good LDN site:

     http://www.lowdosenaltrexone.org/

It would indeed be nice to get some of the benefits of opiates, without all the other BS, from my own body.

~et
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: sassyfras on July 24, 2010, 12:53:06 AM
Yeah River, that experience sure turned you off the CF5's! But I don't think it was ever determined that it WAS actually naltrexone in those....we were thinking that it might be some kind of a "naltrexone like" herb, maybe an herbal opiate antagonist/partial antagonist like cat's claw or something that would have a similar effect. So that means you've never actually tried using naltrexone in it's low dose form, right? Something else you might want to experiment with some time maybe. Too bad we didn't learn about LDN before starting opiates!!!

Roy, ALL of the tests they ordered for me came back negative too, every last one. Even the psychiatrist I went to see told me that I was basically normal & that my depression was "situational", in other words I was depressed about feeling so horrible & not knowing why or what I could do about that. ( My doctor didn't send me to the psychiatrist until all the tests came back negative....I don't blame him for maybe thinking my symptoms were just "all in my head"! At that point I wondered too if that might be it, at that point I didn't care anymore WHAT it was....I just wanted to get better.) This was getting very frustrating for me and my doctor both so I finally decided to go for another opinion. I told the new doctor about all my symptoms, all the tests, the visit to the psychiatrist & he then said to me, " It sounds as if you might have "Myalgic Encephalomyelitis". I had never heard of that. He told me that it's also called CFS & gave me a couple of internet sites where I could find more info. I was so excited that someone finally had a "name" for what was going on with me, that I went out & bought my first computer shortly thereafter....

My story is pretty much like most people's who have CFS, only some ( Lord only knows how many!) never do get a diagnosis. A diagnosis only happens after all other possible diseases have been tested for and ruled out, and it only happens if the doctor the person is seeing KNOWS what CFS is. Many still don't and many don't consider it a "real" disease. CFS is like the "elephant in the room" of the medical profession. If getting a diagnosis is important to you, Roy, I would suggest finding a good website about it and print out the criteria for CFS & take it to your doctor. Tell him/her that it sounds an awful lot like you!

Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: roy d on July 24, 2010, 10:13:05 AM

Hi Sass,

I never got a 'real' diagnosis of CFS and it would be nice to have a label to put on it.  But it really doesn't matter since there is nothing they could do about it.  I can see a Dr point - if ya don't test positive fer it you ain't got it and if we can't test fer it we can't help ya. 

Guess you have to learn to live with it the best ya can.  Did CFS have you waking up every day nauseated and with diarrhea and very weak.  One Dr thought it was my pancreas and gave me some enzymes that worked very well.  Now, I went to the health food store and got some pancreatic enzymes and they seem to be working.  I had my CFS back in the 80s and never felt all that great since but what I am going through is about 1/2 as bad.  Have you got any better since you first experienced it?

 Roy
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: riverhaven on July 24, 2010, 03:21:04 PM
No Sassy-- my lab showed there was naltrexone in the CF5s along with the puffer fish poison.  Neato combination-- let's try to control the addiction you get to the powerful puffer fish toxin by modulating it with nal.  I tell you, Alex and company, were quite the bunch of charlatans...
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: sassyfras on July 24, 2010, 04:53:46 PM
Wow, River, I guess I never read that part about them actually finding naltrexone in the CF5! Still, it WAS an interesting formula & it DID help quite a few people quit their docs far more painlessly than anything else they tried. I sometimes miss it, but knowing now what was in it it's probably a good thing it's not around anymore.

Roy, I woke up the same as you, with the endless diarrhea, nausea & weakness....I've never felt that hopeless & alone in my life. I couldn't believe the way opiates took away ALL those symptoms. Although my doctor prescribed them for the physical pain I had from a combination of FM and severe back problems, the pain was not what was destroying my life...the CFS symptoms did that. I think I probably would have found ways to deal with the physical pain, but so far I haven't come across any really effective ways of treating CFS, except for LDN.( Amino acid therapy seems to help to a degree for some too.)

I recently discovered a really excellent couple of products that work like magic for healing gut troubles. Since the majority of our opiate receptors are in our digestive systems, it's not at all surprising that gastrointestinal problems are so common in people with downregulated dopamine production. That includes people with all the immune system illnesses from CFS to AIDS to people who are detoxing/recovering from opiates. The digestive system seems like a logical place to start the healing process. The products I found are called " RevitalX" and "Detoxitech", made by "Natural Factors" in Canada. Everyone I know who has used these say they are the best thing they've ever tried. Just google those to learn more about them. I like it that they were designed on the basis of solid medical/scientific research, but more than that I love the way they work. If you are feeling very bad you can use them as a meal substitute full time & when you feel better you can start adding in other foods & just using it once a day. I found that only a week on those was enough to put me back on track. My other favorites are "Natural Calm"magnesium, any real good EFA, Vitamin D-3, niacin and a wonderful Vitamin E formulation made by "Primal Force" called "Accel".

You said that your symptoms now are only about half as bad as they were before, Roy. What do you attribute that to? So you have any kind of regimen that you stick to? Has Iboga helped you?
Title: Re: Another new member
Post by: roy d on July 24, 2010, 05:42:15 PM

Hi Sass,

I first started feeling it when I went back to Houston from the Detroit area.  I was working and going to the gym and working out pretty good for a 33 year old, arms looking nice.  Then it was all over, I could not ever change the oil in the car - extreme fatigue.  Why do I feel better now, I would say time can help, it first noticed it back in '86 or '87 but I have never been as strong as I was before it hit me.  I take vitamins like a one a day type (no iron) then a C, B, D can Calcium w/  D.  I never told anyone that things got better if you took an opiate.  I never knew it helped others.  Your the only one who mentioned it to me and it surprised me - I thought I was the only one and would never mention something like that to my Dr. for I was also suffering back pain.  It is kind of funny, you can't tell a Dr I feel OK as long as I am taking opiates and get sick when I don't take them - bad idea. lol.

Every morning I would wake up nauseated, runs and so weak.  Now, it
seems that I have having problems with the digestive track.  Done been CT'd  and MRI'd and Ultra sounded and blood tested and everything seems to come out OK with a slight elevated blood count.  I think it is the pancreas or gallbladder but  the scans say everything is fine.  If that is the case maybe it is he ole HCV bothering me.

It really is good to know that I am OK, that other people experienced the same thing.  If I were a Dr and a person told me opiates help CFS I would think oh man how did he get in here??

Nice Talking with You,

 Roy