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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Eon T McKnight on June 30, 2010, 07:05:24 PM

Title: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on June 30, 2010, 07:05:24 PM
I am having a HUGE problem with anxiety these days.  I am starting this topic on anxiety 1) to be able to discuss anxiety and its treatment and 2) to find help for myself and others in a similar situation.

There are two primary factors to my condition, the first is the continual presence of anxiety in my life since the age of 4.  The second is that I have recently dug myself into a deep, dark financial hole  --  one that has tweaked my anxiety to panic levels.

While iboga has helped to reduce my level of anxiety almost totally for periods and has reduced overall anxiety, it has barely put a dent in it.  I am still too anxious to deal with the source of my anxiety (finances, etc.).

I am thinking that I might have to break down and see an MD for anxiolytics, maybe even a benzo.  However, we all know those drugs do not cure anything, which is why I totally intend to proceed with iboga therapy.  The problem is that iboga does not look like it is going to be a 'quick fix' for my problem  --  and I'm hoping I'm wrong.  (At least, it would be irresponsible to count on a quick fix.)

I do not think that doing another flood dose is really what I need.  Plus, my financial condition causes me to seek more economical methods.  I don't need to be anxious about how much money I spend on iboga along with everything else.

--> Are there any anti-anxiety drugs/supplements that would fit well with ongoing iboga treatment?

--> How can iboga be used to treat long-term, chronic anxiety?

Your kind help will be greatly appreciated!

Peace, Love & More Peace!

Eon T McKnight
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on June 30, 2010, 07:13:00 PM
From another one of my posts  --  figured I should add it here since it's what got me started on this topic.  The post is referring to the use of 1g of RB a day as an antidepressant.  Would it work as an anxiolytic, too?  Or, would it make the anxiety even more uncomfortable?  ~e

I have heard that when one uses RB on a regular basis, it builds up in the system and leads to an unpleasant state of stimulation.  Along with depression, I have a big, big problem with anxiety.  My recent thought is that the anxiety is a major causative factor for my depression.

My level of anxiety rises and falls from day-to-day and hour-to-hour.  I am concerned that the stimulatory effects of RB added to the effects of a panic attack would be monumentally hard to deal with.
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: fallout330 on June 30, 2010, 08:13:26 PM
Sorry to hear of the financial trouble Eon.  Finances have always brought anxiety to be as well, to some extent.  I usually try to live as simple as possible to reduce the financial burden.  No doubt, to reduce the anxiety, a positive financial change would help, if possible.  If an increase in income is not possible, maybe reducing your living expenses could help. 

There is a gentleman named Mark Boyle, somewhere in Britain, who was undergone an experiment to live without money.  So far he's been able to do so for about 18 months, so far:

http://www.justfortheloveofit.org/home

If nothing else, it is interesting to read about his own experience.

This is not to say that you should follow the same Eon  ;D, but it may show all of us that those necessities could be reduced somewhat, or maybe controlled more effectively.

Kava and Valerian have usually helped me in reducing overall anxiety.  I couldn't say in regards to iboga, I'm still a baby in experience.

Peace Eon!

Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on June 30, 2010, 08:44:02 PM
Thanks for your thoughts, fallout!  Boyle is one interesting dude  --  I like his style!

I have tried valerian, but have to take so much (like 7 - 12 caps of the strongest stuff I can find) it really screws up my digestive system  --  green gooey or watery poop for days after.  There is no way I could do it on a regular basis.

et
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: riverhaven on June 30, 2010, 10:16:19 PM
From what I have read, while ibogaine floods can help withdrawal related anxiety, there are a significant number of patients that post-flood have anxiety issues, difficulty sleeping, feelings of being overstimulated or "wired"... so I don't think iboga would be a very good choice at all for treating chronic anxiety.  Indeed, in my research for using it for microdosing-- chronic pain patients have to cycle it because after too many weeks on even a low dose, they get the "wired" feeling. 

I surely can understand your desire not to start on yet another addictive drug-- all the benzos and their cousins.  You will become addicted as do most people that get on them for any length of time and getting off them is no fun.  But, they DO work well.  You may have to play around with which one works best for you with the least side effects-- but if you want relief, they will do the job.

As for supplements-- I have found passionflower to be very calming and not sedating.  It supposedly helps your brain produce it's own calming chemicals-- endorphins, dopamine and the like.  Indeed, when I was without it for a long weekend, I did notice that I was more easily upset by things.  I have no side effects from it either.   Also, while doing the detox from opiates-- I did the 4000 mg tyrosine with a Vit B6 on an empty stomach each morning and while it helped me wake up ( ie was a bit stimulatory)-- it did also even out my moods during the morning and early afternoon.  It does this also by helping your brain make dopamine. 

HTH
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Nganga Nobunoni + on July 01, 2010, 12:38:57 AM
Flood dose of Iboga' deal with all the stuff that is creating the anxiety' come back blank' no top ups' no further Iboga or substances for at least 6 weeks'

Allow Iboga to rewire your brain!

This is of how Iboga beats anxiety!

Bliss!

Nobu +

No alcohol or opiates or benzos after iboga' they kill ibo's binding to sites within the brain' and leave one with residual stimulation of which brings back anxieties'
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 02, 2010, 07:15:17 PM
Hi river!

Welcome you to the Forum!  I think it's really great to have an MD contributing.  The effort you have put into helping us clearly demonstrates your commitment to healing.  You have my sincere thanks!

My first course of iboga therapy took place during a reprieve from sources (financial, etc.) that contributed to what I'll call 'acute anxiety' and I did find pretty much total relief from chronic anxiety and depression.

With the return of the sources of my acute anxiety, unfortunately, both depression and anxiety have returned.  The good news being that neither has returned to pre-iboga levels.

While fear & anxiety certainly have a necessary role in protecting the individual and in driving survival oriented behavior, too much anxiety leads to inappropriate responses.  How does one tweak anxiety levels to be maximally helpful?

To control my anxiety, I have been meditating, but I have not reached the level of proficiency where I can just turn off anxiety the way that could be done with BZDs (BenZoDiazepenes).  It concerns me that using BZDs (like alcohol) for acute episodes would not help my progress with meditation.  Plus, my ability to build a tolerance to just about every drug I have ever used would possibly lead to escalating doses and a nasty addiction.

I'm wondering if I could limit BZD use to only stressful, anxiety producing situations...

Since I also have insomnia, I went looking for something that would help me sleep.  Upon looking up Lunesta, though, I found this discouraging wiki entry:

Increased risk of depression

It has been claimed that insomnia causes depression and hypothesized that insomnia medications may help to treat depression. However, an analysis of data of clinical trials submitted to the FDA concerning the drugs zolpidem, zaleplon and eszopiclone found that these sedative hypnotic drugs more than doubled the risks of developing depression compared to those taking placebo pills. Hypnotic drugs therefore may be contraindicated in patients suffering from or at risk of depression. Hypnotics were found to be more likely to cause depression than to help it.


Sigh!

I have used Buspar in the past and it has provided fantastic relief.  The effects were somewhat similar to MDMA!  Unfortunately, the relief only lasts for a couple of hours at a time and is not dependable  --  sometimes it doesn't work at all.  Larger doses (>30mg) were not any more helpful and had uncomfortable side effects.

I wonder if MDMA would be of benefit...  (Too bad that finding real MDMA is just about impossible nowadays or I could find out.)

Does anyone else have any information or experience that confirms or refutes Nobu's claims that BZDs spoil iboga's good effects?

~eon
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: GratefulDad on July 03, 2010, 02:13:00 AM
I might be afraid of MDMA with iboga.  I know with 2cb it did intensify it's effects.  With iboga, it makes me a a bit more sensitive to everything.  I did LSD tonight, but my last dose of iboga was two days ago..  Benzos would dull the effects of iboga for sure.  I am gonna kinda go with Nobu, though, just from my gut..  I mean I ain't got any science for you, but I can tell how iboga works for me..  I am getting pretty in tune with iboga, and I think it will teach you how to use it if you let it..
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: niceboat on July 03, 2010, 05:33:54 AM
Quote
--> Are there any anti-anxiety drugs/supplements that would fit well with ongoing iboga treatment?

I haven't yet started Iboga to know if it fits well with Salvia, but Salvia has great anti-anxiety effects, im talking about its long afterglow as well as its sublingual low doses, some links here

http://www.shaman-australis.com/~claude/salvia3.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19422370
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 03, 2010, 02:06:49 PM
GD  --  I was not thinking about using iboga and MDMA at the same time.  Upon considering the subject, I have to agree with you that it is probably ill advised.  At this point, my thoughts are that iboga should not be mixed with anything with the possible exception of harmine and THH.  Iboga has such nice, clear, friendly, intelligible visions and I think that combining it with other substances would only lead to a loss of clarity, etc.

Allow me to rephrase my question:

Are there any anti-anxiety drugs/supplements, to be used in between iboga treatments, that would fit well with ongoing iboga treatment?

That is, I need anxiety relief to be able to function and remove the causes of my anxiety, but I do not want any drug-based treatment to interfere or negate the progress brought about by iboga.


Niceboat  --  Thanks for your suggestion and the links!  I have noticed a definite reduction in anxiety and depression (the two are closely linked in my abnormal brain) the day after using salvia.

Even though the shaman-australis link describes use of S. splendens, I do have some S. divinorum that I can try.  I'll let you know what I find out.  It will be fantastic if a quid of salvia helps; I had never considered using the leaf since the Mazatecs use somewhere around 30 - 40 leaves for an entheogenic experience.  The 'day-after' effects, though, suggest that the anti-anxiety/depressive nature of the plant might indeed be present in low doses.


As for the BZDs, I know that Cal has combined them with treatments.  Also, goatboy has been using them since his flood.  Think I'll PM them boyz and invite their responses.

Since BZDs' effects are confined to the BZD receptors, and iboga does not bind there, I see no mechanism for BZDs to affect the GDNF production that appears to be the key to iboga's long-term benefits.

Please don't think I'm being any sort of BZD advocate here, I really don't like 'em.  I do need to get functional, though  --  that is of prime importance to me at this time.

~et
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: riverhaven on July 03, 2010, 02:19:05 PM
Eon your thinking processes thru each suggestion sound right to me.   Especially that the BZDs won't interfere with your ibogaine.  However-- in your comment to me-- I really worry how you develop tolerance and nasty addiction.  BE CAREFUL.  I do think it is possible for addicts to become functional users- but it requires incredible willpower and concentration on what you want.  Good Luck....
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 03, 2010, 03:01:51 PM
River  --  Ten thousand thanks for your concern!  Even though I do not like BZDs and have never abused them, I am still quite concerned about getting hooked on them.  And I can't think of anything much worse than getting hooked on something I do not enjoy in the least.

The reason I started this topic is because I have begun the process to get psychological and psychiatric help.  To solve a problem, one has to first stop denying that a problem exists.  It may take quite some time to definitively deal with my psychological demons, and in the mean time I need to be functional and not kill myself with anxiety that is out of control.

The one prescription medication, out of the numerous ones I have tried, that has worked for both depression and moderate anxiety is Moclobemide, a RIMA (Reversible Inhibitor of MAO A).  The problem with that is that it has yet to be approved in the US.  That fact does not, however, prevent me from purchasing it over the web.

The deal with moclobemide is that it does not work with acute anxiety and worsens my insomnia.  So, what I am currently thinking is using moclobemide daily along with something to deal with the occasional bouts of acute anxiety and something to help me sleep.

Maybe two different medications could be used:  BZDs for occasional extreme anxiety and something else for sleep.  That might minimize the danger of getting hooked on either one.

Too bad they don't make Qualudes anymore.  I didn't like or abuse them, but they were great for putting me to sleep...

~et
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: x on July 03, 2010, 03:49:01 PM
Eon, can I ask how much RB you took when you did your flood? I can't seem to find it here in the forum.

Tia to the maxx!

(edited cuz I said GD and not Eon initially)
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: x on July 03, 2010, 05:14:54 PM
Uh geez, total mind finger disconnect.
Eon, I mean TA, not RB.
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 03, 2010, 05:34:58 PM
Hi Tia,

You probably didn't hear my announcement about doing a flood because I never made one. (heh)

The reason why I only mentioned it a couple of times in passing is that it was done without a sitter, and I did not want to encourage anyone to do the same.  Due to considerable use of harmaline over the years, I have become extremely proficient in dealing with ataxia, and iboga presents no more challenge to me than walking around on peyote, LSD or mushrooms.  Actually, it's easier than trying to find my way around after a large dose of ayahuasca.

To answer your question, I used 3.5g of TA for my flood.

After a series of treatments, using a total of ~9g of TA, my depression and anxiety were pretty much gone.  Unfortunately, the iboga did not remove those external things (AKA reality, the cold cruel world) that trigger anxiety and depression for me, so some of my progress evaporated.

No matter how much iboga I throw at them, those external triggers are not going to go away until I deal with them.  So I now see my best course of action to be eliminating those triggers.  To do that, I have to manage my levels of anxiety and depression.  I have found iboga a big help with depression but not as much help with anxiety.

So, that's why I want to continue iboga treatment for depression while also treating the symptoms of anxiety by other means.  From experience with the on-again-off-again effects of buspar, I am confident that I can get things taken care of if I can just eliminate acute anxiety.

~eon
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: x on July 03, 2010, 06:05:17 PM
Thanks for that info. That's about what I used for my flood as well, though I think I will go higher for my next.
When I did my own home treatment with an inexperienced sitter, I thought less would do it, he was surprised to have to keep feeding me more. Now I know, lol. Which is why next time, I will have an experienced person, someone who knows ibo very well!

With respect to you, Eon, have you tried going INTO your anxiety, instead of eliminating? Sitting with it, thinking about the fears, what they are, paying attention to what is happening with your body while experiencing anxiety?

Maybe approaching the anxiety instead of approaching external fixes will be something you can explore with a therapist.

I know for me, I have some big financial and security worries at times. These are things which at one time would have paralyzed me. I have been exploring my reactions to external events with an observant self, looking at why I react, where it really comes from. It's been very informative. Heck, it's been transformative. I don't take any medications at all except for root bark (and not much, really) and smoking pot a couple times a month. Does tobacco count as medicine? I smoke a couple cigars a day, too. :)

It's easy and gratifying to let our very strong, smart brains run with things like chemistry and control. It's a lot more difficult (but far more healing, imho) to get out of our brains and into our bodies, emotions and souls.
I think that it's wonderful that you are addressing anxiety, Eon. A candle for you, with loving prayers.

With love,
T

Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: riverhaven on July 03, 2010, 08:15:31 PM
I read thru some posts by physicians who used this in their patients-- and it does work well with panic attacks-- which is perhaps what you are describing as your anxiety in your life?  It also doesn't do well with treating severe depression- only mild, so continuing ibogaine as your main AD isn't such a bad idea.  I think you might be pleasantly surprised with it's anti-anxiety effects.  In addition-- unlike most other AD-- it only takes less than a week to feel the anti-depressant effects of this drug.  This might be good for your plan to fix you underlying causes of your anxiety and depression-- you can get to them sooner.

It said up to 20% of patients get insomnia-- that's a lot-- and unless the herbal stuff works for you-- you are talking about adding yet another addictive drug to your regimen if you use the Moclobemide and you get insomnia.

I think it is worth trying the moclobemide and seeing if it does reduce your acute anxiety by itself.  If you get the insomnia-- start with valerian, melatonin etc to see if those work before you start with any prescription drugs as they are all addictive.  They also if you look at the studies only get you to sleep 13 min sooner and don't prevent night time awakenings-- it's almost sounds like a placebo drug that winds up addicting you for no good reason to me.   But give the moclobemide a chance to fix your anxiety itself as it sounded like to my reading that it does work for that.  I wouldn't go adding in any BZDs for at least a couple of weeks after you start the moclobemide to give it a chance.

HTH

River
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 03, 2010, 08:22:31 PM

With respect to you, Eon, have you tried going INTO your anxiety, instead of eliminating? Sitting with it, thinking about the fears, what they are, paying attention to what is happening with your body while experiencing anxiety?

Tiacita,

One thing I have found out is that sitting and thinking about my fears is a sure way to precipitate anxiety.  If I do it long and intently enough, I can even get to the panic attack level.  Not something that is good for me.

Maybe you meant something else and I have misunderstood you?

As far as what happens with my body, my pulse and blood pressure rise, my stomach churns and secretes acid, and I am sure that my nervous system is being bathed in norepinephrine and noradrenaline.

While I know that such autonomic functions can be consciously controlled, and can do so to a limited degree, there are times when I am overwhelmed and paralyzed.  Boldly marching into the lair of my fears, I have found after repeated attempts, exacerbates my fears instead of allaying them.

To use an analogy:  Anxiety is like a muscle.  Use it repeatedly and it only grows larger and stronger.  I have been exercising my 'anxiety-muscle' since the age of 4, and it has accordingly developed into a massive thing.  I am, like, the Mr. Universe of anxiety.

That's why I see it necessary to stop using it by whatever means available  --  to starve the anxiety-muscle of blood, so to speak.


Maybe approaching the anxiety instead of approaching external fixes will be something you can explore with a therapist.

After repeated failed attempts to deal with the external things that cause me anxiety, I am convinced that I need external helpers, both people and drugs, to eliminate them.  As I said, I have already started the ball rolling to get help from a therapist.
Doctors can often be influenced by a patients suggestions, and rightly so in some circumstances, if for no other reason than the placebo effect.  I want to have 2 lists of anxiolytics (and sleep aids) to take to the doc, one list of those I will consider and one list of those I won't.

That's why I'm seeking recommendations from the ibogang here on the Forum.     ~et
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 03, 2010, 08:27:52 PM

I read thru some posts by physicians who used this in their patients-- and it does work well with panic attacks

Hi River,

I was just finishing my response to Tia when your post appeared, so I just let it fly.

Are you referring to moclobemide in the quote above?   ~et
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: GratefulDad on July 03, 2010, 08:44:12 PM
I have sat back from this discussion for a good bit.  The reason why is because I don't think what I feel and think will be what you'd like to hear Eon.  I honestly think all the anxiety people have, is created in their own mind, by worrying about things that are unnecessary.  One begins to worry that something might be wrong, they can't control, then they focus on it, and cause actual physical symptoms to arise.  It comes down to getting off the pharmaceutical crap that doctors would pump you full of.  Iboga will get to the root of the problem, and if you can work your way through the feelings and come to a revelation, it becomes easier to put the worries and fears into perspective.  In other words, IMO, the anxiety you feel is all in your head, and you continue to create it and perpetuate it. 

I think if you take a good flood of ibo, lay off the stupid pharma crap, WHICH they produced to steal your money, and trick doctors to think that they are helping, with more propaganda, that you might begin to realize your true self and true potential.  I could be crazy, totally off, and I am not a medical expert, so it's only my opinion, but I bet I could straighten you out..  And it would be first by starting to remove all these nutty drugs you want to take.. 

Again just my opinion, and by no means should you listen to me, if you think I am way off base.  I really want you to understand I am not trying to be mean, but I seriously think you create all this stuff yourself.  I feel you are totally responsible for every feeling you feel, and if you want to change, you need to do so from within..  You just got stinkin thinkin, and need a check up from the neck up! 
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: riverhaven on July 03, 2010, 09:31:53 PM
Sorry Eon-- yes I meant I read up on Moclobemide for you and found a listing of posts from various docs all over the world who have used it.  I summarized it for you in my post.
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 03, 2010, 09:35:20 PM
Dad,

While I don't believe that you're trying to be mean, it is certainly true that you are not being empathetic or sympathetic.  But then, maybe you have never had thoughts or emotions that you couldn't control.  Maybe anger, fear, jealousy, love or hate have never caused you problems.  I'm not sure if that makes you lucky or not.

The vast majority of people are not that 'lucky' and will find themselves overwhelmed by any one of a number of emotions at least once in their lifetimes, usually more.  Read up on counseling; a sympathetic ear is recommended over the tough-guy approach in everything I have read.  Belittling the person one is ostensibly trying to help accomplishes nothing of value, IMO.

Duh, of course it's all in my head.  You talk like I'm an idiot or something.

I'm not the only one on this Forum who has psychological and/or emotional issues.  You do all us sikkos a disservice with such a dismissive, condescending attitude.

There's no way I would let anyone with that kind of attitude try to "straighten me out!"

Eon


PS to River  --  Thanks a million!  I thought that was what you meant from reading the entire post but wanted to be sure.  I sure do appreciate your research effort.  My research into Moclobemide did not turn up anything about panic attacks.   ~et
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: x on July 03, 2010, 09:55:10 PM
Sometimes, Eon, it's very hard to be honest with you, because I fear you will take things the wrong way, based on experiences I've had with you.
Nothing in GD's post did I read as condescending, I read lots of support, and an offering to help.

Underneath everyone's anxiety are erroneous base beliefs about ourselves. They are different for everyone. Getting down and into those beliefs can help heal them. That's what I meant about sitting with your anxiety. Going into it. There are some scary things inside all of us, for sure. What happens in a panic attack? What would happen if you went into that as well? On the other side of our greatest fear is our greatest peace.

I think a big, thumpy flood would do you good as well. Some of those scary things get healed with a big flood.

We are all on our own journeys to our own truths, and it's not for me to say that you are not exactly where you need to be at this very moment.

Love,
Tia

Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: riverhaven on July 03, 2010, 10:43:20 PM
To Grateful Dad-- you diss drugs, yet recommend one to straighten out Eon-- ibogaine and then proceed to tell him he's basically making himself sick and he doesn't need drugs.  I realize you feel that ibogaine allows you to heal yourself-- but I maintain it's a drug, it causes the same increase in neurotransmitters that the drugs Eon wants to take increase.  I believe it helps with depression, drug withdrawal etc thru it's actions on the brain- it's drug-like reaction.   The very hallucinogenic effect that causes us to be able to view ourselves are all caused by changes the drug ibogaine makes to the brain.  It's as much a psychoactive drug as the drugs Eon is talking about using.  Is the ibogaine more effective than the other drugs?  That remains to be really studied-- anectdotal reports from specific patients doesn't count.  It could be that it is more effective and I also would bet that if Eon could do the ibogaine treatment with directive thoughts/affirmations made by his therapist as mine did during my alpha/theta neurofeedback-- he could perhaps overcome the anxiety.  But I think at this point he's too far gone to try just the ibogaine and there isn't a clear way to use it for his anxiety-- doing it on his own hasn't helped him.   Doing it with monitoring at a rehab wouldn't be any better-- I honestly believe he needs a directed experience to target the anxiety.  So, right now there doesn't exist a way to use ibogaine as an anxiety reducing medication-- Eon has shown that to himself.   My reading of ibogaine effects show it can cause worse anxiety after a flood, so doing one might be detrimental to Eon.  At this point it seems more reasonable to me that he continue to use the smaller doses of ibogaine as an AD and he treat his anxiety separately.  Ibogaine has clearly been shown to help with depression as much as current ADs do, so Eon should use it.

I do see how ibogaine has helped you, GD and that it will help a lot of people if it's ever allowed to do so.  I believe in it-- it helped me tons-- but it is a drug as surely as are the AD and anti-anxiety drugs are.  I even think it could help people like Eon one day if studied as to how to administer it-- what dose should be used and probably with some directed therapy to help him overcome the anxiety.

It was interesting to hear an AA sentiment-- you have stinking thinking, along with a suggestion to use a psychoactive drug-- they most certainly wouldn't approve of that at all!  Nor do they approve of taking any psych drugs. 

I also didn't find GD's post to be condescending-- he just doesn't believe in using any drugs other than ibogaine to help and he tried to express that.   I have to agree with Tia-- he was trying to help.  I happen to think differently about it than GD does.  And I am trying to help too. 


Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 03, 2010, 11:39:57 PM
River,

Thanks so much for your objective response.  While you see the value of iboga treatment, you also see it's limitations clearly  --  it is not a universal panacea.

Yours is the kind of advice I was looking for when I started this topic  --  measured, objective and based upon my current needs.  Thanks!


Dad & Tia,

I apologize if I got testy, but sometimes it is not possible to turn off negative psychological states like hitting a wall switch  --  if it were, there would be no multi-billion dollar antidepressant/anxiolytic market, would there?  I have put a huge amount of effort into solving my problems and perhaps I am overly sensitive at this time to suggestions that I am ignoring means and methods to heal myself.  I am not without qualities and strength even if I am having difficulty with parts of my life at present.

I realize that neither of you are trained therapists and that I undoubtedly had unrealistic expectations and was overly sensitive to your comments.

Can you two agree that a flood dose of iboga is not a cure for everything?  Remember, a one-trick pony can only do one trick  --  we limit ourselves if we take a view that is too narrow.  Zealots are neither rational nor open minded, I hope you do not let yourselves fall into that category.

Iboga is a tool.  You would not use a hammer to sink a screw, would you?  A saw to pound in a nail?

et
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: RavAv on July 04, 2010, 12:26:22 AM
Trouble with you is the trouble with me,
Got two good eyes but we still don't see.

 ;D
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: GratefulDad on July 04, 2010, 12:51:16 AM
You misunderstand me, I think.  I am not trying to be condescending..  It has been my experience, however, that drugs can't cure the problem, since it is from within.  The only way to sort through the problem is to get to it's root.  To figure out why you feel the way you do.  Only then can you begin to fix the problem.  You can only put a band aid over a wound for so long.  The band aid won't heal you, it just makes it look nicer until it's healed.  The problem is, the drugs do nothing to stop the problem..  Therefore, you can pick any drug you wish to treat your symptoms, but that's only if you never want to be cured..

This is coming from someone who has used drugs for most of my life, whether to treat my issues, or to have fun, or to escape feeling the way I did.  Only after learning that most drugs won't fix anything, could I begin to figure out that they were a big part of the problem.  Sure I still enjoy using some drugs, but it's for recreation, or insight, not to cover up my feelings. 

I have had irrational fears, worries and anxieties, but I learned how to control them with my mind.  Your power to control your mind, your emotions, and your physical actions is definitely something you should look into, as it doesn't seem, in all the research and drug taking you've been doing (for how long?), has helped you come to a single conclusion.  Maybe it's me, but you can keep trying the same things over and over and expecting different results, or you might try to sort it out a different way.  Iboga helps balance all this stuff, and that is what Eboka Forums, is about, correct?  Using iboga to heal, to get off drugs, etc.?

I went through years of counseling for drug addiction, and my feelings come from my heart.  I see your anguish day in and day out, and I think using drugs to control your seemingly irrational fears and anxieties will not help you.  But alas, you must find your own path.  Like they say, whatever helps you sleep at night..

Nowhere did I call you an idiot.  I am not trying to be a tough guy, and maybe you're right, I shouldn't try to help with my views.  I am sorry you feel the way you do, and I don't know how I could be of any help.  I was right to refrain from speaking on your thread, and I will leave it now.
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: RavAv on July 04, 2010, 01:03:24 AM
Shalom,
Hope my comment was not insulting.
I enjoy being part of this forum.
Truth is, it is the only forum I take part in.
I once saw a survey that read:
90% of the world does not think, 9% think they think, 1% actually think
Praise the Creator, everyone here is working on themselves,
trying to improve themselves
and be better people
do not take that for granted
it is a rare commodity in our time and generation
i admire that you all are working on yourselves
but please don't take your selves too serious
placing too much importance on anything is the beginning of its downfall
I know that i know nothing - I'm just a bozo on the bus trying to focus on truth
and willing to work hard to get there
sometimes we fall in to the trap and all of a sudden
everyone seems to be an expert
i do not trust myself, and I certainly take with a grain of salt what others (even experts) say
curveballs were created by the Creator for those who think they know
years ago i worked with many medicine men / shamans
they would not even assist in the healings for at least 10 years, and would not guide a healing for almost twenty years
to teach or give advice - they would wait 30 or more years
today everyone is a shaman / guide / teacher / expert / healer in 2 years
or after 3 visions and a long seminar
let's not take ourselves too serious
let's keep working on oursleves and do our best to help each other

surrendering ourselves, we learn to trust.
Moving aside, starts the journey of life.
Surrendering your will, you find yourself.
Opening to the love, the world comes alive.
Unity

peace, love and blessings
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: GratefulDad on July 04, 2010, 01:11:49 AM
Again, Eon, if you'd read my post, I said I could be totally, wrong, I might be crazy, hell we all know that, and I am just giving my OPINION.  That is all it was.  If my opinion doesn't gel with what you feel, then by all means disregard it.  I never tried to insult you at all.  I only gave what I honestly felt might help. 

BTW, I ain't trying to treat anyone, I am not a shaman, a medicine man, or healer..  I can be a good friend, though, and sometimes that does mean showing some tough love, if I feel it's needed.  Now I hope you don't get offended, but I'd rather you hate me to high heavens if it helped you get a new angle on a way to help yourself.. 
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Nganga Nobunoni + on July 04, 2010, 07:58:12 AM
>>>Read up on counseling; a sympathetic ear is recommended over the tough-guy approach in everything I have read.<<<

Thanks for the big smiles Eon'

Councilors act the way they do cos they are taught to do so' so they get paid and keep clients coming back' so they can if possible' get em addicted to pharma shit and counceling' and have em on their books for the next 15-20 years' so they can pay for their cars' morgages' wives and girlfriends'

You are the one that puts in your mind that of which you look to see' You create your own anxieties then feed them' the likes of putting logs on the fire'

Of what I see is you no suffer anxiety' you "Worry" about physical things' money' etc'

You should use your psychic energies for to get money to come to you' no sit there and worry about of where it is going to come from' you waste your time' your energies and your life' as of when you could put these energies to good use and create something better for yourself'

Worry is a self creation and also a SIN'

The Law of Attraction states that of that which you think of' imagine and feed with emotion shall manifest itself within your life'

Stop manifesting worry and re-channel these energies into something constructive'


No outside influences can help you'

You have got to want to heal yourself' if you make half hearted attempts at dealing with yourself' then you shall get half hearted results'


Meditation and Tai Chi' teach your mind that you are in control' you have got a rampant head monkey of whom has no self dissapline' learn to sit him down' cross his legs and fold his arms and tell him he is dearly loved' and that he should play with one toy at a time' and only speak as of when spoken to'

Mind can only look in one dirrection at one time' it is up to you of which dirrection you point your mind to see'

Power Love and Light to you brother'

Nobu +


Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: riverhaven on July 04, 2010, 12:55:29 PM
I doubt at this point he has the patience to sit and meditate-- tho I agree that is the way to heal the mind.  I am taking the quiker route with holosync -- Tia uses the first tape in the series with her iboga patients-- they quickly place you into the desired brain waves and over the series they raise your threshold to handle life stresses.  Having been thru a bitter divorce with continued lawsuits by ex hubby-- I KNOW how stressful life can be-- plus I spent 25 years in an abusive marriage self medicating at the end with alcohol.  I am well aware of self medicating for stress.  I chose ibogaine to get me off my drugs and I chose holosync and neurofeedback to help me deal with stress.  But I am not experiencing panic attacks like Eon seems to.  I can sit and meditate-- if you can't holosync recommends waking up and hour early and listening then-- half awake- it still gets in.   Perhaps Eon could try that after the drugs calm him down a bit-- then wean himself off the drugs doing meditating or holosync.  The guy just seems in crisis to me right now and none of my ways are immediate.  The ibogaine isn't being used for anxiety-- but I think it could... but it isn't.  He needs to calm down before he looks at his inner self-- that's what I think needs to happen.

And for whomever said psych guys just look for money from prescriptions and want to keep you on it.  Psych MD's prescribe medicines-- they recommend in the US that you see a PHd who has no prescribing abilities to handle all the therapy-- the talking etc... that Eon needs.  He needs cognitive therapy to deal with how he interprets situations-- I've had all that for my problems so I know it works.  He won't get that anywhere else but a therapist's office.  Once he's using his cognitive therapy and once he's calmed the panic attacks down-- I think he may be ripe for methods less ripe with side effects like the drugs are-- but that includes ibogaine.... insomnia, vomiting, ataxia, etc.... they all have side effects.  Ibogaine is better in that it helps you see your shortcomings and faults and evaluate your need for change.  But he's just not ready for that.  That's my opinion.  Not as an MD-- as a person who went thru this all herself and has come to the ibogaine and holosync after 3 years of therapy.  I took no drugs-- but I did the rest of it-- all the therapy part.  I did it all and it calmed things down enough for me to get something out of my ibogaine experience and now my holosync.  Don't count Eon out on this-- just save it for later.
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: sassyfras on July 04, 2010, 02:09:48 PM
Riverhaven, I believe, has an instinctive grasp of what is known as "empathic listening" and that is what makes her words so  helpful to someone in a crisis. She fully accepts where the person is *at the moment*, & that is a crucial element in their eventual healing. When we bombard someone with our own opinions, advice, "would coulda shoulda's" we are putting ourselves & our own stories in the forefront and people often feel more threatened by that than helped, more isolated.

My sense is that Eon is not looking for specific advice as much as he is just looking to be "heard". Eon may be suffering from his anxiety but he is an intelligent man who WILL find his way through that, he is clearly motivated & dedicated to doing so. No matter how good the advice he gets is, he will probably do better with simple acceptance & support. There is an ancient culture (sorry I forget the name) that believes a person needs to tell their story THREE times & be actually HEARD by another person each time before they can be healed. I love that, it demonstrates the value & beauty of true empathic listening. Each one of us already has whatever we will require to heal from our various traumas, conditioning,etc. and the finest healers/therapists simply listen & help put the person in touch with their own wisdom. Very much like what Iboga seems to do...

I didn't think that anyone here was being condescending or dismissive, but that is what advice giving feels like to the person who just needed to be heard. And then away we go~~~~~~the subject veers away from the original issue and can turn into a "he said, she said, I didn't mean that, etc etc etc. fest, lol.
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 04, 2010, 03:00:21 PM
It is most interesting to stand here and hear myself referred to in the third person.  I guess being open in a forum like this requires something of a thick hide.

Here is my current treatment plan:


Treatment for Low Level Anxiety and Depression

Get therapist and begin Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.

Continue with daily meditation practices and add a binaural brainwave driver to speed progress, probably Holosynch.

Begin treatment with moclobemide to reduce anxiety and depression.

Continue iboga treatment with lower doses as suggested by Sara Glatt (200 - 300mg TA weekly/bi-weekly as appropriate).

Get more exercise and spend more time with others.


Treatment for Acute Anxiety

Get Rx for anxiolytic to be used ONLY when confronting the two tasks/situations that are currently my anxiety triggers.


As much as I respect and value your advice to not go down the anxiolytic path, River, circumstances compel me to do so.  I just do not have 3 years  --  or even 3 months  --  to get my anxiety under control naturally.  If I don't do it soon, I will literally be out on the street.

While going walkabout, in a 21st century American fashion, may be exactly what I need to develop my spirit, I would much prefer that it be my choice instead of forced.

With that in mind, I would like to ask the following question:

Which benzodiazepene (or other medication) is superior for rapidly and effectively reducing high levels of anxiety that also has minimal effects on clarity of thought and motivation?

In other words, which BZD will quell my anxiety and still leave me able to function?

Whoever can answer that question shall receive my undying gratitude.

~eon

PS to Sassy  --  Thanks for clearing the air and putting things into perspective  --  a very wise and insightful post.  You have earned my undying gratitude for doing so.    ~et
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: RavAv on July 04, 2010, 03:39:24 PM
if you want anxiety reduction and clarity
try the herbal route
MOTHERWORT / passion flower / skullcap / hops / chamomillia / catnip / lemon balm
these 7 herbs mixed together can be taken in low dose for daily use or very high dose fro acute attacks
(by the way - i add valerian to the mix and give it to my iboga journeiers somewhere between 30 and 48 hours and they sleep so well)
another key for anxiety control is oats - every day
if you are too lazy to make oatmeal just take raw oats in a bowl with orange juice

also - i have found over the years
the starting point for all health is 1 - 2 hours of physical actvity daily

may you be blessed with a complete healing
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: riverhaven on July 04, 2010, 04:09:17 PM
Here ya go-- a cut a paste-- but was basically what I read in similar articles on what you are experiencing:

Xanax (alprazolam / anxiolytic)
Alprazolam has a long history of association with panic disorder and its treatment.4

Summary of principal features
Peak plasma levels attained in 1-2 hours.
Half-life: 12-15 hours.
Dose: 1-2 mg/daily; extreme levels: 0.5-8.0.
Distribution speed (how quickly it gets to the parts of the nervous system where an effect is desired) – intermediate(1 p. 317).
PRN usage: appropriate for when anxiety challenges are 5 times a week or less (just a rule of thumb).
Has a high receptor affinity, and more withdrawal effect than its half-life would predict.
Due to its speed and duration of effect, is ideal for use with panic attacks.(1 pp. 311-321)
For non-acute dosing, clonazepam may be superior:
Dosing frequency is much lower (bid, rather than tid/qid).
Withdrawal effect less severe than with alprazolam.
In one study, 80% of panic disorder patients preferred clonazepam over alprazolam.

Adjunctive medication for anxiety – anti-depressants and beta-blockers
A number of medications are can be productively used to supplement the principal medication used in anxiety treatment.

Antidepressants (see above).
Beta-blockers – most useful for adjunctive treatment of physical symptoms associated with anxiety, and so is especially useful at times with panic disorder. Propanolol is the main medication used. Heart rate reduction appears to be a good guide to adequacy of dosing level. Negative effects on quality of consciousness are not usually seen with beta-blockers. Fatigue and depression side-effects may be observed.(1, pp. 322-323)

Symptom remission is less in more severely impacted patients
These individuals need to be given antidepressants.
Higher dosage levels – 4-6 mg/day alprazolam – may be needed.(1 pp. 329-334)
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: riverhaven on July 04, 2010, 04:11:37 PM
BTW Eon-- you have my full support here-- I know what it takes to go from severely stressed so nothing gets in to getting to a place where something goes in and then finally getting to a place where iboga fits in and you get better.  It took awhile with me and seems when I read more addict stories on here-- it took them awhile too-- read Matt S's saga-- 5 times iboga til he was ready for it's message.  Far better to be ready for the message when you do the flood....
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 04, 2010, 05:29:50 PM
Av  --

Thanks for the recipe!  Do you use the herbs as powder or in tea?  I have GI problems eating green/leafy herbal powders even when not agitated.  Tea would be the only way I could comfortably use those herbs on a daily basis.

I have never heard of oatmeal for anxiety, but it is one of my favorites, and I have a bunch in the house.  I'll get some milk today so I can have it tomorrow for breakfast.

I have been using a few supplements that reduce cortisol production and inflammation, adding a couple sedative herbs that don't upset my tummy might be a big help for daily anxiety reduction.

River  --

So when do I get a bill for all this fantastic personal service?  Too bad I have no insurance...  (chuckle)

Since 80% of panic disorder patients prefer clonazepam, plus its less severe withdrawal, it makes it a possible choice.  However, I am not a typical panic disorder type.  While I have had some panic attacks recently, they are few and far between (well under 1 per week, more like 1 per month on average) so I may not really fit and might find shorter acting Xanax preferable.

I'm thinking that since my baseline anxiety level does not require anxiolytics, perhaps I can avoid addiction by only taking BZDs on days when I know I will be dealing with stressful stuff.  If I take the meds BEFORE I address the SHIT panic/anxiety should be far easier to control, and require less meds, than if I wait until I'm freakin' out.

Since anxiolytics will not do me much good if I'm too messed up to take care of things...

Have any of you ibogangers used both alprazolam and clonazepam?  Which would be preferable for maintaining functionality?

Thank you all for you kind efforts to help!    ~eon
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Calaquendi on July 04, 2010, 06:21:53 PM
Sorry to be brief but my PC time is scant right now - Eon my friend, I am an advocate of moderate and limited use of BZD (esp Xanax) for severe anxiety. IMO no herbal treatments work as it does. The obvious drawbacks of habit forming medicines can still be minimized with diligent management. I know not everyone agrees but sometimes this is the best route. I have used them after floods to aid sleep and quell restlessness and also used them concomitantly with boosts and microdosing. I have an addictive personality too, and I don't 'like' benzos - so that kinda helps, but we cannot afford to be naive about chemical dependency at all. Use them only in therapeutic doses and titrate down over a given period -say, a month?

I understand anxiety, it is awful having to lug it around. Maybe taking 1mg Xanax twice daily with small ibo doses will settle you in to a comfortable space where you can discontinue the anxiolytics and just roll on to other more natural remedies as your condition and outlook improves. Great advice in this thread, I wish you the best brother. Much love - Cal

PS -cognitive therapy is INVALUABLE. I saw a real good psychologist when I had insurance and she did some guided imagery with me and gave me some good ideas about how to approach this cognitively. Keep up the good work Eon!
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 04, 2010, 09:43:32 PM
Buddy Cal!

I am very glad that you were able to chime in!

Isn't ironic that after starting the Benzodiazepene Cessation topic back in May, I might be one of those needing it?

On the other hand, I probably wouldn't be considering benzos now if I hadn't familiarized myself with the nature benzo withdrawal  --  it doesn't sound worse than opiates and is rarely dangerous.

Wishing you

Peace, Love & Lotsa Computer Time  (cause it's good to hear from you!)     ~Eon
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: sassyfras on July 05, 2010, 12:59:54 AM
Your plan sounds very well thought out, Eon. I'll be watching this thread with interest because anxiety has reared it's fugly face more than once in my life too. Not enough to send me to prescription meds but enough to make me very uncomfortable, enough to give me a lot of sympathy for anyone dealing with it.

I was on clonazepam for 2 years some time back, but not for anxiety....I was taking it as a part of Dr. Paul Cheney's protocol for treating excitatory neurotoxicity, a very unpleasant condition sometimes experienced by people with myalgic encephalomyelitis(CFS). The 2 most important parts of his treatment are clonazepam and magnesium, both of which are neuroprotective substances. I found this duo incredibly effective...I was taking 2mg clonazepam & 1500mg magnesium(Natural Calm) per day. I'm mentioning this because I think this combo just might help your anxiety also. Certainly couldn't hurt to take some magnesium if you decide to try the clonazepam. ( After the 2 years on these, I tapered off the clonazepam with no problems whatsoever...over a period of 6 weeks.)

I've found Kava very useful from time to time also....it is an interesting item because it takes up to several days of using it daily to get the effects...& it has "reverse tolerance", i.e. you need less of it the longer you take it. Finally, I've found that Baclofen is very helpful, very calming. A few of us over at our other forum found that it really helped us with those jittery, "wired" & wanting to jump out of your skin feelings we'd get during a detox or a rapid taper off opiates.

Just a few ideas~~~here's hoping you emerge from the other side of this feeling strong, calm & GOOD!
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: RavAv on July 05, 2010, 02:37:55 AM
best way to take the herbs is in a tincture (drops)
try http://herb-pharm.com/

also as someone who has worked in the addiction field for almost 15 years - watch out for xanax
it might be the most abused drug in usa today
a few years back more people went to rehabb for xanax than ANY other drug
IF you do need benzo (try the herbs first)
talk to a dr. about rotating your script between 3 different ones every 2 weeks
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 05, 2010, 12:04:30 PM
Sassy & Av,

Thanks for your comments!  Maybe clonazepam is a better choice than Zanax/alprazolam.  While the longer 1/2 life is a negative, its easier withdrawal is a definite plus.

I wonder if clonazepam is, overall, less addictive than Zanax...

Ahh, now I see why my Kava experiments came to naught  --  I never tried it for more than one day on a few widely separated occasions.

I wiki-ed Baclofen, and its mechanism is similar to GHB.  How interesting!

So Av, are you saying that you combine tinctures to make the calming recipe you shared above? I recall no tummy problems from use of tinctures (unless they're in a chilled glass with a couple of olives, that is).

~et
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: koko on July 05, 2010, 01:48:00 PM
hey there,thought i'd respond to this thread,but i admit ,i couldnt read it all,so if the discussion is over ,or solved ,never mind my imput.we use low doses of clonidine at the hospital i work at for anxiety,the beta blocker helps alot with the patients,trick thing is, you have to make sure you dont bottom out your BP,so monitoring is a must.i have found it helpful as well during my slow taper.dont know if this is something youd consider,but its dirt cheap,must be tapered too-koko
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: RavAv on July 05, 2010, 01:58:00 PM
i have a pharmacy that makes my tinctures for me
and does the mix
but you can buy them seperated
and mix them yourself -
happens to be  - in this mix - i use equal parts
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: koko on July 05, 2010, 02:51:07 PM
oh,and also,neurontin works on gaba ,like benzos,isnt expensive & doesnt have the addictive color of benzo's-koko
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 05, 2010, 03:47:26 PM
Koko!

Thanks for your suggestions.  A doc gave me some propanolol as the single treatment for anxiety, but it gave me absolutely no relief for the mental/emotional part and hence was pretty much useless.  I can see how it could be used with another anxiolytic to combat severe anxiety/panic attacks, though.

I wonder if neurontin could be used for low-level anxiety maintenance and benzos only for periods of high anxiety/panic.  That might limit the danger of benzo addiction.  Hmm...

Glad you're here!  For a while I have thought that having more women as contributors would be a very good thing for the Forum.  It was starting to seem like a men-only club around here (with the exception of Tia, of course).

Peace, Love & Stardust,

Eon
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: goatboy on July 05, 2010, 08:46:14 PM
I been waiting for more info on this, I haven't been around my computer for a while to pitch in at all, if it's worth anything anymore considering you got a lot of options to try already..

But I'd say xanax over clonazepam personally, I've been on both, and for anxiety relief in small doses I got better benefits from xanax.  Although I hate to advise any Rx benzo really, but sometimes if you got a deep wound, you have to put a band-aid on it for a little while as long as you know you gotta take it off within reasonable time to let the rest of it heal.  And I only say that because you KNOW all about how addictive benzos can be, and I would think you could be very smart with them just to get you over this hill of panic attack levels, because that isn't healthy for you either.  If you figured something out, great, don't even bother with Rx's at all, but if not, they DO work, and you should know not to abuse them nor do I think you'd want to, and it's not something you HAVE to take EVERYday to work.  If you did get them, don't even form a habit, make one script last a couple months and work on things in the meantime.  But I guess I shouldn't talk too much because benzos are the only drug I still take really, besides weed which I stopped smoking anyways a week ago for an upcoming drug test for a good job :)

But I have been working on lowering the amount of xanax I take and I don't even have to take them everyday now, I never abused them (I've tried years ago and just hated it really), they are actually rather cheap (I was getting 120 bars for about 28 bucks w/o insurance), and although I upped my xanax intake throughout years of my opiate abuse to help with withdrawals and just everything really, since my flood I've gradually and so far pretty sucessfully lowered my tolerance and intake greatly now and now take maybe 1 a day, sometimes none, sometimes 1 and a half, but whatever.  I hate supporting it at all, but I agree Ibogaine isn't cure all quick fix.  It's been a GREAT tool for me to completely reprogram the way I think about everything, especially pills.  But everyone is different, I've had bad anxiety and panic attacks at a pretty young age myself, and I don't think it's the worst thing to have a xanax as a backup before things could blow up.  I hope to eventually stop them completely, but for now I'm doing great and taking less than I have in over 5 years, and the little bit I take now I feel doesn't have any horrible side effects, and is not controlling my life in any way.  I have learned to control when I take it for the most part now.  But anyways, I only say this because if it's your ONLY option left, I think you would be smart enough with them and use them completely to your advantage and be able to rid yourself of them also when needed.

Sorry for going against the grain on this one, just MO.  I know many purists would never be open to this concept and I understand that, but every person is different.  I've never had depression till I had deep enough anxiety to cause depression in me, without the anxiety, I am not a depressed person at all.

My other method is to completely zone out of a situation as needed for a while, and go into a whole different situation in my mind, rather not focus on unrealistic anxieties.  Which is HARD to do when your an easily triggered person, but I have gotten better at it over the years and to this day I am..

But let me know what method works for you, I am interested to hear...
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 06, 2010, 10:38:49 AM
goatboy,

I am very glad you were able to comment!  I have been thinking about you and wondering what you would say about my possible use of benzos.

BTW, the following link is absolutely great for benzo detox.  I put it on top of that huge wiki entry in the "Benzodiazepene Cessation & Anxiolytics" thread in "General Discussion" and you might have missed it.

     http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/index.htm

Maybe I should bookmark that.  I might be needing it soon...  (harhar)   ;D

Since I am in dire need of getting functional so that I am able to deal with the situations/responsibilities that are involved in my acute anxiety, I have pretty much decided to go the benzo route on what I fully intend to be a VERY TEMPORARY basis.

Thanks so much for your input!

~eon

PS  --  I tried my first iboga mini-dose (200mg TA) yesterday per recommendation by Sara Glatt.  It did not seem to increase my level of anxiety, but neither did it eliminate the level of anxiety that I have recently been experiencing on a day-to-day basis.  Similarly, it did not elevate or eliminate depression.  I took the dose at 9:15 AM and was able to get to sleep by 1:30 AM and woke up at 7:30 AM feeling better than usual.  It was a true threshold dose; I felt it but could have easily missed it if my attention was otherwise occupied.

It appears that higher dopamine levels in the proper areas of the brain go a long way toward reducing anxiety and depression  --  one of the reasons people self-medicate with drugs of abuse (i.e. drugs that make you feel good).  Dana Beal commented that very modest levels of ibogaine are all that are necessary to increase GDNF levels, so I am looking for gradual but consistent improvement in my dopaminergic function.   ~e
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 06, 2010, 01:27:02 PM
Hey niceboat  --  got some interesting results using Salvia!

I have been using fresh medium-sized S. divinorum leaves folded and rolled-up between my cheek and gums.  I didn't notice any anxiolytic effect the one time I tried it during the day.  HOWEVER, my anxiety is like the weather, one day good then one day bad, and sometimes storms roll in making the day particularly bad.  So, I will have to try it some time when anxiety is high to tell.

What is really interesting is that I have used it the past 2 nights when I went to bed and fell asleep within maybe 1/2 hour each time.  That is something very encouraging for this insomniac.

I doubt if it is strictly the placebo effect since I really did not believe that I would be able to leach enough medicine out of green leaves to affect me.  However, I fell asleep so fast and hard that the book I was reading fell to the floor and I awoke with the bedside lamp still burning.  And best of all, I awoke feeling good with absolutely zero hangover.

Gonna keep experimenting with this!  Thanks for your suggestion!!       ~eon
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: niceboat on July 06, 2010, 02:10:33 PM
Eon T McKnight

I am happy for you, I knew Salvia could help you as it did to me tremendously! it clears the mind, lets me peacefully get to my works, makes me feel too good all the way :d also helps me get close to and solve any issue and again with peace, I am so grateful for Salvia.

Just recently I became a member of a private forum where people are Salvia experts, and there just learned the "Salvia Tea" too, I liked it alot, as the effects last much much longer, but again more subtle, in all its great, one could have several cups of Salvia tea during the day and the whole day would be so good :d

The forum is entheo-worldeyes.org, you got to get in

I read lots of "good things" about "Kanna" too in there, I can't wait to try it, and I have a hunch it would work for your anxiety too.
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: sassyfras on July 06, 2010, 09:43:23 PM
That's interesting about salvia, Niceboat...I was growing Salvia. along with a bunch of other herbal medicines like Passionflower & Skullcap, in the big indoor grow room I had before I sold my home. That was about 15 years ago, long before I had a computer and I had never seen nor heard Salvia mentioned except for a short write up by a seed company that intrigued me enough to want to grow some. It was easy enough to grow, but I didn't know how to use it....I may even still have some dried leaves somewhere in a jar....

You mentioned using "fresh" leaves, Eon. Do you grow your own too? Could a person on opiates use Salvia safely? I would be very interested in learning more about this plant.
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 06, 2010, 10:21:51 PM
Sassy, sucking on a leaf or two like I have been doing should be totally safe for just about anyone.  BTW, it is S. divinorum, an entheogen from Mexico, that I am using.  Though I seem to recall seeing seeds offered on the web recently, it had been propagated by cloning for so long in Mexico that people didn't think it would produce seed.  Though I did manage to get a couple of my plants to bloom, they never set seed.

I am thinking you probably had one of the other Salvinorum varieties.  There are a bunch.  I think coleus is a family member as is sage.

The plant is often extracted to make a concentrate which is smoked, yielding DMT-like effects.  Not a lot a people like it due to its intensity.  It is traditionally used for divination in Mexico when mushrooms are out of season by the Mazatecs, if I recall rightly.

Gonna try another leaf tonight.  Three nights of good sleep in a row would be utterly fantastic.  Here's hopin'!     ~et
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: roy d on July 08, 2010, 12:49:51 PM

Hi Eon,

For sleep I like Restoril, for me they are not habit
forming, it is a benzo however.

Hey Eon, I am serious, I know you might think I
am kidding but honest I am not.  When life gets
ya down and you have a lot of problems and things
are bothering ya and your worried and you have
ego problems, etc.  Watch Jerry Springer for five
or ten minutes - you will then realize that your not
that bad of a guy and your life could be so much
worse.  Whatever ya do don't start watching it
everyday.

Best of Luck,

 Roy
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 08, 2010, 01:16:28 PM
First, I would like to express my appreciation to EVERYONE who has contributed to this topic.  You have been a big help.

Secondly, I would like to apologize for getting more than a little testy with a few of my replies.  Please understand, standing up and acknowledging my problem and talking about it for a few days straight was very stressful for me.  I was so wound-up that it has taken a few days to calm down.  I'm sorry if I hurt or offended anyone.

On the good side, I have been experiencing sort of a 'calm after the storm' with less anxiety and better sleep the last few days.  I guess it was sort of a verbal purge for me.

HA!  Jerry Springer, Roy?  Yeah, nothing helps like seeing a man with no feet...

One thing that did not make it on my list of things to help me with anxiety is getting a 'calm companion'.  I have seen mention of people subject to panic attacks getting a 'mentor'  --  sort of like AA  --  who they can call when panic sets in.  Being alone allows my anxiety to feed itself; having someone beside me who has no anxiety over my issues definitely helps me maintain a more realistic and calm attitude.  It appears that I have located a couple of people to help me in that way.

I am not trying to close this topic  --  additional comments, suggestions and insight are welcome.

Peace, Love & Cheerfulness to All!

Eon
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: roy d on July 08, 2010, 01:41:15 PM

Hi Eon,

Have you ever went to NA and had a sponsor?
You seem to have the answer - get someone
you can talk to, someone who can reassure
you, a sounding board.  Living alone can be
so lonely and you may have too much time
on your hands.  I think it is an excellent idea.

Best,

 Roy
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 08, 2010, 02:09:27 PM
Thanks, Roy.  A while back, a friend kindly helped me with some things that were triggering anxiety and it made things SO much easier.  I recently read the Wired article on AA and that got me thinking.  Is "sponsor" the term that AA & NA use?  Maybe I confused it with "mentor".  Either way, you obviously figured out what I was trying to say.

Pouring my attention into this forum (my virtual sponsor?) is certainly one technique I have used to minimize anxiety, but it is often more than a little escapist.  Plus, it is impossible to actually deal with the things I feel anxious about while pounding the keyboard.

~et
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: roy d on July 08, 2010, 07:00:27 PM

Hi Eon,

Yes, in the NA and AA world they call them
sponsors, about the same thing as a mentor.
It seems like a good idea but now that I think
about it do you want to go the NA/AA route?
Can you go without drugs and do you want to?
In a way it be just be more anxiety because
you may not live up to the sponsors expectations.
With the NA/AA your allowed cigarettes, coffee
and SSRIs and not much more, do you think
you could attend meeting and walk the straight
road?  If your serious about kicking, you have
taken Ibo before, what's left?  If you think your
ready go for it.  When your fighting King Kong
you got to use all available means.  Whatcha
think?

Best,

 Roy 
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: riverhaven on July 08, 2010, 08:41:00 PM
AA and NA sponsors have NO training other than being one of us... indeed- they could still be using themselves or have some other undiagnosed problems.  Just because you are a long timer in one of those groups doesn't make you any kind of expert- nor should they become the be all and end all of these poor addicts who grasp at anything and anyone.  Ughhh....   Eon--  I think you were on the right track with the talk therapist who's got training in cognitive behavioral therapy.  I will tell you my own silly story and how I used my therapist as my "calm mentor".   I got to the point I had so much panic I couldn't open my ex's emails-- but I had to because he had three lawsuits against me going.  The panic was toooo much and I wanted off the alcohol, not on another self medicator.  So, while we worked on fixing my brain with talk and neurofeedback, I would print off the emails and give them to Harry ( my dear dear therapist).  He would read them thru and then summarize for me what I needed to know.  All he'd say is "Oh besides this important info he's got some more of his ranting at you-- you don't need that".  After a few months of that help-- I was finally able to SOBER open his emails. 

It really helps to have a therapist you can trust that much. 

Oh and no offense to any of you who are die-hard AAers-- my best friend got better that way-- trading her addiction to alcohol for an addiction to meetings ( try 2-3 a day) and an addiction to her sponsor ( If I heard " Eddie said...." one more time I was going to punch her LOL).  But it did the job-- she NEVER relapsed and it's been like 15 years now.  So I see it can work for some.  It didn't for me, and I didn't like being forced into it by the system.  Non-religious alternatives need to exist.   LOL at one AA meeting I was told to make my higher power a door handle... uh huh-- oh that will help me give up booze....NOT...  And I didn't have bad sponsors either.... I just didn't find my way out until I found ways to heal my brain, not worship door handles.
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 08, 2010, 08:46:28 PM
Hey Roy!

As far as I am concerned, I am done with those naughty drugs I used to love  --  and I'm not having any problems being that way.  The last time I did opiates, I had been clean for months, but just 80mg of OC on only 1 single day gave me mild physical WD for 3 days and then left me feeling low-down and depressed for a month afterward.  Maybe my body chemistry has changed, but I just can't do that shit no mo.

I really feel zero need or desire to go back.  Just yesterday, someone called trying to sell me Dilaudid.  It was easy to say "No!"  I'm very confident that I'm over that shit.

To say it bluntly, I have dumped all of my old acquaintances that are users or alcoholics.  Come to find out, I hadn't cultivated many clean, sober friends.  Oops!

I have also cut out ciggies, coffee, most sweets and OTC sleep aids (antihistamines).  Interestingly, my use of aspirin and ibuprofin has also dwindled to just about nothing.  I'm doing pretty well on a number of fronts.

I do not/will not have liquor in the house, but I have been drinking a couple of glasses of wine when I go out to eat.  It seems that more than 2 - 3 glasses of wine will leave me depressed and out-of-sorts the next day.  If I were to drink a LOT, it would be 2 - 3 days.  Maybe my gut is smarter than that gray thing between my ears...  I make it a point not to drink more that 'one day in a row'.  I succeed very well at that, too.

I've gotten more and more careful re: alcohol as each of several friends has died from it.  I am happy with my present level of drinking, but am not closed minded about quitting entirely.  If I discover that 2 glasses of wine contribute to an unpleasant mental state the next day, I will quit.  I am watching.

It seems reasonable that at least part of my current difficulties with anxiety and depression are due to not covering them up with feel-good substances.  I clearly recognize that those things were actually making the condition worse.

I still smoke pot occasionally and don't do near as much ayahuasca and peyote as I SHOULD be.  Is iboga on AA/NA's list of no-nos?  I made a vow last Thanksgiving to never tell another lie and have found being totally truthful to be exhilarating.  I couldn't lie or misdirect to anyone in AA/NA.

With all that said, I don't think I'm a good candidate for AA/NA.  What's your honest opinion?

BTW, here's a link to the Wired "Secret of AA" article:

     http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/06/ff_alcoholics_anonymous/all/1

Thanks for your kind concern and help, Roy.

~Eon
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 08, 2010, 09:02:19 PM

I got to the point I had so much panic I couldn't open my ex's emails


Holy Cow!  That's just what I have been going through with different triggers.  I really do appreciate your sharing of your experiences.

Intellectually, rationally I know that those triggers are not making me anxious.  I am making myself anxious.  What I need to do is to not allow myself to become anxious when confronted with those triggers.  But, that's very easy to say...

Peace, Love and Tranquility!

Eon
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: riverhaven on July 08, 2010, 09:13:42 PM
LOL you think AA would approve of iboga???  Are you nuts???   They don't even allow people who have co-issues-- ie are alcoholic and manic depressive to take their lithium or whatever newer things they have.  NO meds ever are allowed.  So you either have to go and lie-- the easy way, go and make a fuss about how they all need iboga and get yourself mauled LOL or just not go.... 

I've tried Smart Recovery in the past- that's what they ran at my rehab in Savannah-- that's the closest to what I believe, although they disagree that alcoholism is a disease-- all addictions to them are your fault and in your head.  I don't agree with that at all--- the brains of alcoholics ARE different and you can see them on scans.  Is this pre- alcohol or post-- hard to tell.... but whatever--- diabetics ruin their bodies ( the type 2, obesity types) and no one would dare say they don't have an illness.  So I believe something is wrong with our brains that needs healing-- LOL I guess a version of it's all in my head...
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 08, 2010, 11:07:10 PM
Aw, come on River, don't be shy and tell us what you really think about AA.  (chortle)    ;D   ~e
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: x on July 09, 2010, 02:37:00 AM
Ya know, I don't care for AA myself, but I do know they know there are 'problems other than alcohol', and psych meds are 'allowed' for an MD diagnosed condition. I have been either in or around AA for many, many years, mostly California. Maybe AA in other states is different.

I don't think alcoholism  is a disease, either. If by chance it is, Iboga cures it. :)

"I got to the point I had so much panic I couldn't open my ex's emails"

I've been there, too!!! I know it's not popular here to talk like this, but I went into the feelings. Sometimes it's okay not to open mails, ya know? Just be afraid. Hide in yr room, be afraid. See what it feels like, while looking for the deepest cause. I've found out so much from this about myself. Part of the strength to do this comes from being very curious about what I am, and where this stuff comes from. I keep looking, I want to know. If I took a pill everytime I felt anything other than calm and happy, I'd be taking a lot of pills. ;)

Everyone is different, yup. Everyone grows and learns at the pace that is perfect for them.

T

Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: harveyplex on July 09, 2010, 08:32:29 AM
I used Ibogaine to help treat an opiate addiction .
I would NEVER say to an alcoholic that Ibogaine will get rid of your alcoholism.
 I am a hardcore alcoholic too !
I havent had a drink in almost 10 years now and the last thing i would ever do is feel so sure of myself that i would ever have 1 drink again after such a long and hard road it was getting off of it , I woulndt ever crush up an 80 mg oxy and toot it up my nose since ive come huge strides since last november(flood in December) .  I did the same with crack cocaine in 1990 . Through some miracle i quit and there was no way i was going to get back into it with the break i got .
Ibogaine doesnt stop your addiction YOU do . It just helps in interupting it and sometimes provides insights to why your addiction is an issue or the road you took in becoming an addict .
I strongly believe that once you are addicted you are always addicted regardless if you are now clean , practicing or on the fence (in and out of aa,na,ca meetings ....or using , cleaning up , then relapsing again a short/long time later).
Learning to NOT WANT what you have become addicted to is the goal here .
Ibogaine is just the best helper ive ever had in acomplishing this .
Once you get to that place youve dreamed of (and its not all summer and honey either) why even think that you can go back to and succesfully navigate the shithole you called hell right before your salvation.
 Once an addict always an addict .
thats something to remember .
Ibogaine is your assistant in your mission with sobriety (other issues too) .

It is the suffering addict (alcoholic)whom must do the real leg work .
With ibogaine helping its much , much easier to heal oneself .

Mucho  mahalos
-harvey plex aka bee
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: roy d on July 09, 2010, 09:12:19 AM

Hi Eon,

Well if you went to NA/AA you would either
have to lie or quite everything.  They are
hard and set in their ways, they will not
understand you using asa, mushrooms,
pot, or alcohol.  With the *As you use
nothing - ever, don't think about it.

I really don't know why you are so hard
on yourself.  Read over your post - you
really have no drug problems.  You control
you alcohol, you quit cigs, you got rid of
your dope using friends, etc.  Your not
doing bad, you misuse one drug the
opiates.  Oh yes that is a big deal but if
you take the Ibo and try I think you have
a chance to overcome it - you have
overcome all the others.  Look at how
well you handled other substances - you
are easy on pot, and everything else. 
Now, get the Ibo and kick the opiates.

OK, now come down from the Ibo and find
a therapist or counselor.  It may be a once
a week or twice a week deal, whatever.
Your objective is to find a mentor or buddy
or someone you can talk to.  The NA/AA can
help but a sponsor will not understand your
use of any drug and your not going to lie.
I would say forget about it for you will feel
guilty lying about it.  Then you will be living
a lie and that will add to the stress.  Just
find someone a therapist or counselor or
someone to get an outside opinion.  Maybe
a shrink depending on how you get along
with them.  I would say avoid the SSRIs
but that is just me.  If they bother you and
cause mood swings or make ya feel suicidal
quit taking them but remember they are
addictive.  If the SSRIs work then you take
them.  Depression is a hard thing to fix, it
takes many meds eight weeks to work, a
person can have a lot of ups and downs in
eight weeks.  Placebos work almost as good
as the real SSRIs with less side effects.

That's about it.  Have you ever called the
county health department and tried to get
a therapist of some kind?  Since you really
don't have a drug or alcohol problem you
could see a 'regular' therapist so to speak.
What I mean is you don't really have to
see a substance abuse therapist.  Now
you want a mentor or someone to work
with so go find someone.  You have thought
things through now look up the number
and call someone.  Why not do it today
for there may be a waiting list.  Then go
and talk to whoever can help you and see
how it goes.  Many people are bothered
by stress and anxiety and a non substance
abuse therapist may be best.  If you go to
a substance abuse therapist they blame
everything on drugs and will not understand
you using what little you use.  There are
some who will not see you if you use.  A
non substance abuse  therapist can give
you tips to help curb anxiety or sometimes
just talking to someone can help.  Sure,
give it a try.  The sooner you call the
sooner you can get started.

Wishing you the best of luck,

 Roy
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: harveyplex on July 09, 2010, 09:20:00 AM
right on Roy !
i am glad you are here bro.
some very sound advice .
- hp
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: fallout330 on July 09, 2010, 10:47:47 AM
i 2nd that, good advice!
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: x on July 09, 2010, 11:00:50 AM
Friend Harvey,

I, too woujld never tell an alcohol addict that Iboga cures alcoholism. Those are such loaded terms, especially for the AA crew. I say that Iboga interrupts addictions. :)

But here among friends, I will speak my truth. I was an alcoholic by anyone's definition. I took Iboga last summer. I am no longer an alcoholic. I have had a few drinks since then, the cravings are gone, I can have one drink and walk away. Don't want to hear this stuff? It's what I am living. If I did indeed have a disease, it has been cured. I am a normal drinker. 'Cept maybe I drink far less than a normal drinker because I no longer enjoy the effects of alcohol. I am not lying. I am no longer an alcoholic.

Roy, I always enjoy your words. That's some sound advice. You are one of the most chillax people I know.

Tia
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 09, 2010, 11:37:11 AM
Hi Roy,

Please accept my deep gratitude for your kind words and sincere advice.  People like you, harvey and the rest of the ibogang really warm my heart.

I guess I was unclear in my previous posts, but opiates are no longer an issue for me.  I have turned that corner.  The last dose I did is my last dose ever.  Only one previous source has called me in the last three months, and I believe that I was forceful enough, without being rude or angry, that she will not call again.  If she wasn't the daughter of a friend, I would not have been nearly so gentle.

I can't do SSRIs due to side effects, but I have found something that works for me:  moclobemide.  It is the safest and shortest acting MAOI out there.  I hope to have some in the mail today.

My former therapist was not nearly as successful at helping me as being a part of this forum has.  Maybe it is best that she refused to lower her fees when I started experiencing financial difficulties.  I have a real problem with greedy people, and her insistence on full payment has poisoned that well.

I have started the ball rolling to find a new therapist through a physician acquaintance.  I also spent some time yesterday searching for help on the State social services website, but found all of the red tape and BS to be discouraging.  I have a nurse friend who works for the State I am going to try next.

Peace, Love & Sanity!

Eon
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: roy d on July 09, 2010, 12:02:10 PM

Hi Eon,

I am glad you off the opiates, so for all practical
purposes you don't use drugs or close enough.
All you got to do is get a therapist.  Now, since
you do not have money you have to go to the
state.  When you deal with the government you
have a lot of paper work, your gonna have to do
the paper work if you want to see the therapist.

In many ways a forum can be as good as a
therapist, but that's just me.  It can be a
24 x 7 NA/AA where they don't care if you
use a little here or there.  But you said you
want a therapist and someone you can talk
to so you need to do the paper work.  I would
say do it now for money is tight, many cities
and states broke.  Get on the list as soon as
possible, if they start budget cutbacks who
know when you will be able to see one.  Also,
make sure your not putting it off due to the
anxiety.  It can fool ya sometimes.

Best,

 Roy
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Calaquendi on July 09, 2010, 01:33:03 PM
I love this crowd of people. Every time I read threads like this one it makes me feel proud to have friends like you guys here!

I really think 12 step programs have alot to offer - but it certainly isn't for everybody. For about nine months I spent some serious time working with a 'sponsor' (never did like that term, I prefer mentor) who opened me up to a great deal of personal work. It is all a part of my journey I think - looking back - everything I have ever done, good, bad, indifferent, has led me right here, right now...and I am among some of the brightest most caring people I have yet met, so this makes me feel confident that there may indeed be 'something' to all this...all the suffering I have been through and put my loved ones through as a junkie hasn't been in vain if I can really learn from all of it and do my best to heal and reach out to others. Like Tia said: "everyone grows and learns at a pace that is perfect for them" although it may be hard to discern such 'perfection' in times of pain or crisis, I believe she is right on with that. Love to you all ~Cal
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: riverhaven on July 09, 2010, 02:12:08 PM
LOL at Eon-- yes I have issues with AA-- physicians who become addicts get forced into it or you lose everything.  And Tia-- you are wrong about most AAs-- they may "tolerate" MD prescribed meds but they don't approve it, that little book of theirs that I was forced to memorize states exactly that, NO drugs, especially not any psychedelic ones-- CA must be different as they are so liberal out there that their AA groups look the other way.  I also didn't do any drugs to get over my anxiety(like Eon-- I get too many side effects)-- I healed my brain with neurofeedback until I could handle the emails on my own.  JUST like people do with iboga-- a drug!!  that heals your mind so you can handle the world.  It seems to me if you take a drug to heal your mind-- no matter how much introspection you do into your problem thanks to the drug--- you have a disease and the drug helped you make your brain ready to over come it.  To me that's why I think addiction is a disease and ibogaine a drug that helps you cure it -- as Harvey said-- you need tons of aftercare etc to stay off the stuff.  You are an addict for life- the disease never goes away-- it just gets helped.  You have LOTS of work to do to stay sober and clean.  Drugs --- Iboga-- only help so much.

You were lucky Cal-- I too had some really good AA sponsors-- they weren't the problem, their friendship and understanding helped.  I think that's why AA works.... It was their book and beliefs that made it impossible for me.

Anyway-- that's my opinion about ibogaine as a drug and also that our problems with our life that we self-medicate with drugs are diseases of the brain that need drugs to help cure.   That drug may be iboga-- may be some other psychoactive drug-- but in order to even look into a chaotic, messed up, stressed out brain--- you need something to calm it enough to look at itself.   In fact, the only non-drug thing I've found that helps calm a diseased brain is neurofeedback and now holosync as that operates on the same principle-- inducing you into calmer delta and theta brain waves--- which is still what drugs do to your brain LOL... 

Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: roy d on July 09, 2010, 05:22:37 PM

Hi River,

I can see why you don't like it but it has
helped quite a few people.  NA does not
stop the cravings, that was a biggie for
me.  As far as Rx for addicts it is OK to
take SSRIs and NIs but not a Valium or
Xanax.  But they allow the health food
stuff and they don't bitch about cigs or
coffee - all you want.  That's how it is
in Michigan anyway.  But that was a
very long time ago.  Some people can not
go 100% straight.  I say use whatever
works.  Name your poison.

About Ibo, I know of many people that it
helped.  For me Ibo worked better than
anything else.  Yea, addiction can be hell.
I remember when it was fun.

Best,

 Roy
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: riverhaven on July 10, 2010, 02:48:50 PM
LOL Roy-- remembering when it was fun is what gets us back into trouble!!  I well remember a counselor in Savannah telling us-- you are always chasing that first great high because the subsequent ones are never the same and get less and less so ( thank you tolerance).

I also tried NA-- and found it a little more laid back than AA- however the only NA meeting near me at the time had active users who were constantly wanting to sell me stuff--- that show, Breaking Bad, is sooooo real life.   Anyway- I quit going as I knew my addictive little brain would eventually succomb to them.  But yes- they were not nearly so anti-any drug.  I got crap in AA for using synthroid for my dead thyroid-- without which you go into a coma and die.... but the synthroid will improve your mood ( a symptom of low thyroid is depression) and thus is was a psychoactive drug and I should give it up.   That was my last AA meeting and I surrendered my license soon after-- I couldn't get better according to these people.  I'd never be let free from the system as I wasn't giving up my synthroid....

Anyway-- I think AA and NA works more for the fellowship-- putting you in touch with others like you.  Before the internet- that didn't exist.  That's what I miss most-- it's hard to find a smart recovery meeting that isn't at a prison LOL--- the prison system ousted AA and put in smart recovery down here in FL as it was more successful with the inmates.  Thank god for the internet where you can talk to others who know exactly every road you have been down.... and also have come back.  Those are my faves-- in Smart Recovery they encourage you to leave and move on once you are a success story-- well I want them to stick around to inspire me!!  Selfish I know--- and what's best for them is to move on, not trade addictions to meetings. 
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Calaquendi on July 10, 2010, 03:02:05 PM
Can you elaborate on this Smart recovery a bit? This is new to me...I totally agree about AA/NA fellowship being the crux of the program. I know it was for me during the brief time I spent seriously looking into it. But I also disagree with much of their 'system' - if you need 'medicine' - take medicine. Drugs have gotten me in to boat loads of trouble, caused me and my loved ones tremendous grief  over the last two decades, but also I have learned more than I ever thought possible using psychedelics, and I would not trade even my worst trips - for anything. Those were often the ones I learned the most from. I see I am in good company here. I make a clear distinction between 'good' drugs and 'bad' drugs, something that is anathema to hardcore AAers. I will always be a staunch advocate for each of our RIGHTS to use these alkaloids to heal and grow. People ask me sometimes about my position on this: I believe drugs should be legal. When asked where I draw the line, I say it is simple - NO plants should be illegal. Period. Coca leaves are not crack. Sixteen states have decriminalized marijuana and hopefully more will follow suit. If you want to make a plant against the law, let's start with poison ivy, and lima beans...who the hell likes lima beans?
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: riverhaven on July 10, 2010, 03:13:44 PM
LOL I love baby limas ......I am weird....

Smart Recovery is based on the work of Albert Ellis- now deceased.  He studied and used cognitive behavioral therapy in his psych/addict patients.  Ie--- he had an ABCD network--- A is the activating factor-- whatever that trigger is for you.... B is your belief-- what is your belief about A that makes it a trigger.  C is the consequences to you of factor A-- what did you do?  Why??  how did it make you feel??  And then D is the biggie-- dispute the whole cascade.... A isn't a trigger, your belief it is is wrongful thinking and your consequences were all because of this wrongful thinking.   That was Ellis's big contribution to addiction therapy-- REBT-- rational emotive behavioral therapy.  We act on our thinking and feelings about things that happen to us-- if we thought differently, or taught ourselves to think differently-- we wouldn't behave badly-- like be becoming an addict.  He was a brilliant man who worked for all of us well into his 90s.  It was dang hard to get a fellowship position with him-- I wanted one and couldn't get it-- now it's too late....
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Calaquendi on July 10, 2010, 05:21:53 PM
Thank you riverhaven!
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 11, 2010, 10:12:24 AM
Today is going to be an interesting day for me.  I am being pushed into dealing with one of my triggers  --  my sister and her husband.  Just sending a text message to them last night caused my duodenitis to instantly flare up after weeks without symptoms.

This should be a good opportunity to find out if benzos are going to be an appropriate treatment.  Though my GI tract will suffer, I am going out and getting a bottle of valerian.  I figure that about 20 valerian caps will approximate a single Xanax or clonazepam.  If the valerian helps me to deal with this situation, I will be more confidant in asking a doc for benzos.

Just writing about this has caused my gut to hurt.  Guess I'd best head into town and get some pepcid and antacid tablets before it gets worse.

Will report on how it goes later.    ~et
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: koko on July 11, 2010, 11:44:34 AM
hey yall,sorry your gut is in the wringer,i have a real sensitive gut & use chinese formula to help,they work very well,mine is kinda like irritable bowel stuff.i was reading part of this thread where river discusses doing ibogaine & AA.i used to be a big book thumper(-now i'm in recovery for that!)lol.after i did my first session i went to my usual meeting s and announced it,i got all mixed reviews,my sponsor said,it sounds addictive ( idiot),and one particularly compassionate lady said,well ,what does it matter how you detoxed,how will you stay clean?when i went,the ppl who asked me to sponsor them,were always dual diagnosis,lol.also naughty nurses too,lol.after my second session,they used SMART,which i practised for a coupla years,can be very helpful.after my last session eric hooked me up with my current therapist,i have grown more from our sessions than anything previosly.in fact,it was my old therapist,a phd in sociology that told me about ibogine,i got a computer & well,here i am.the therapsit i work with has done ibogaine & works with alot of ppl who have done it as well.she uses the enneagram some in our work,but not phenatically so,ok -bye -shell
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 11, 2010, 07:41:15 PM
Success ! ! !  By addressing anxiety and duodenitis BEFORE dealing with the trigger, I was able to function and not get panicked.

I ended up taking 40 valerian root capsules and still had some residual anxiety, but I was able to deal with it.  After large amounts of antacids (Pepcid and Maalox) I still have some pain in my tummy, but it is not intense.

Today, I was able to clearly recognize that duodenitis fuels anxiety for me.  Part of that is due to having 3 close friends die from bleeding ulcers caused by alcohol.  Aside from the discomfort, which can get severe if not controlled, I am downright scared about developing an ulcer  --  and that only adds to the anxiety level.  The harder I would push myself to deal with the triggers, the more my tummy would hurt, which made it even harder to get things done.

Gonna see if I can get me some industrial strength Pepcid or Xantax through that Walmart $4 per script program along with some benzos.

While this topic has cause a considerable amount of stress at times, it has really helped me to understand what's wrong and how to fix it.  Please accept my sincere thanks for the help and guidance you all have given me.

Love to You All!

Eon
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: roy d on July 11, 2010, 09:49:37 PM

Hi Eon,

Is it safe to take 40 valerian root capsules?
Seems like a lot, how do you know it does
not have any side effects at that high a dose?

 Roy
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 11, 2010, 10:22:47 PM
Hey Roy, thanks for your concern.  The valerian caps I did today were very weak ones from Walmart, just the root and no extract.  I have used them before, so I wasn't concerned about ODing.  Plus, I took them 10 at a time over a period of ~3 hours.

Yes there will be side effects:  I'll be crapping green liquid all day tomorrow  --  which is why I have to be really desperate to use valerian at all.  But, I wanted to find out if benzos would help me to deal with my anxiety triggers, and the answer seems to be "Yes."

I have used it in the past for sleep, but only once or twice during the day for anxiety, and never when I confronted my triggers.

~eon
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: goatboy on July 11, 2010, 11:01:18 PM
Glad to see your making some progress Eon!!  I wish I could of posted more in this and I actually tried the other day and had a huge thing wrote but then got busy and never got to..  but I been following along with it as I can..

And you should get yourself some valerian extract if you believe that helped with it, 40 capsules is too much for me to take.. I guess if absolutely necessary

I wish you more progress and minimal pill consumption anxiety free times.
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 12, 2010, 10:47:46 AM
Yeah goatboy, definite progress.  Even the valerian extract messes up my stomach, so it's not something I want to continue.  You know valium is based on valeric acid from valerian, right?  It was an experiment to see if benzos would help in times of acute anxiety/panic and still allow me to function.  Seemed to work just fine.

I read about psychologists using propanolol to treat PTSD.  Propanolol reduces the physiological symptoms of anxiety such as racing heart, sweaty palms, etc.  They give it to the patient then 'replay' the memory of the event(s) that led to PTSD.  By greatly reducing the physiological reaction to the event, the patient no longer associates fear with it.

Even today, without any tranquilizer, my thoughts about my anxiety triggers are more positive.  If I can break the association of anxiety with those triggers by using benzos and propanolol, I will be in a far, far better place.

Thanks for you kind thoughts!    ~eon
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: riverhaven on July 12, 2010, 12:02:08 PM
I have social anxiety and so couldn't give my senior talk in anesthesia without help.  I saw a therapist my entire senior year, we did hypnosis and on the big day-- he gave me a valium and propanolol-- it worked REALLY well.  Once I got up on the stage I wasn't nervous at all.  It's a very good way of getting rid of the symptoms of your dread-- then you don't feel so dreadful LOL.

As for ulcers-- they are no longer thought to be due to stress-- they are from a bug-- H. pylori that eats thru the stomach lining.  You can't do that with just your nerves alone-- it may feel like you are-- but you aren't.  Alcohol also causes bleeding out as it too eats the lining, exposing the blood vessels which then can open and bleed.  Hope that wasn't TMI
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: roy d on July 12, 2010, 01:28:10 PM

Hi Eon,

Ida Know Eon.  It just does not make
sense to take 40 caps of anything.
What does the label say?  Would
you take 40 aspirin, 40 Tylenol,
40 hits of exlax?  Yea, I am being
a little funny - you got to keep your
sense of humor.  But really think
about it. How do you know what the
toxic level is.  Your not suppose to
be pooping green, you can only be
hurting your body. 

It don't quite make sense you want
to see if benzos help with anxiety so
you take 40 caps of Valerian.  Why
not take one or two benzos.  When
it upsets your stomach it is trying to
tell you something.  When you take
that much is seems to be addict like
behavior.  You know, like the guy who
can out drink anybody - yea nice work
if ya can get it.  Never seen any ads
wanting a guy who can drink more
than most people. 

You know of course some people were
going out drinking and taking Tylenol
so as not to get a hangover or a
headache.  A BIG no no for the alcohol
will stop the liver from metabolizing
the Tylenol and many people ruined
their liver on just a few Tylenol pills
 - permanently.  How do you know
40 pills won't hurt your kidneys?

I am being honest with you.  Can you
honestly say that was all that great of
an idea? Thimkk man, thimk

 Roy
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 12, 2010, 01:46:50 PM
Hi River, I appreciate the info!  I have read about H. pylori.  I was diagnosed with duodenitis, and a couple of days ago it kicked in after weeks of no symptoms.  I received a stressful text message and by the time I was done sending a short reply, I was in pain.  The next morning when I awoke, the pain was gone but returned when my anxiety level rose.  Antacids do a fair job of managing it.

Is H. pylori the cause of duodenitis?  If so, it certainly seems to be aggravated by anxiety.  Do you think I should get antibiotics to kill them little pylori buggers?

I know alcohol is particularly tough on my GI tract, which is why I switched from vodka to wine and have reduced the amount and frequency that I drink.  I'm thinking very seriously about totally eliminating alcohol to see what that does.

Hi Roy!

I poop green from even small doses of valerian and a number of other herbs including pot; I guess it's just the way I'm built.

The only way I could get a couple benzos is through former druggy-type friends, and I don't want to go there any more.  I had doubts that getting a prescription for benzos would be worth the trouble and expense, but after my valerian experiment, I am fairly confident that they will help.  So, it might not have been a great idea, but I am glad that I did it.  Rest assured it is an experiment that I won't be repeating.

Thanks for your honesty and concern!  You're a good friend!

~et
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: riverhaven on July 12, 2010, 05:31:17 PM
Actually the H pylori is the number one cause of duodenitis-- so it is worth looking into.  Since you say the antacids help so much-- I am betting you have a weak sphincter from your stomach to your duodenum and the acid is getting into there from the stomach. 

I have to agree -- taking 40 pills- even of a herb is a bit worrisome.  I have to believe if you get yourself a legit script for a benzo and a therapist watching over you- that is better than 40 valerian!
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 12, 2010, 07:08:31 PM
Hmmm...  Vewy Vewy Intewesting!

"I am betting you have a weak sphincter"

OK, since problems ONLY occur when I'm stressed or anxious and NEVER when I'm calm, it would seem that the action of the sphincter is somehow connected to stress/anxiety.  How does stress/anxiety cause the sphincter to relax and open?  Or are there muscles that actually open the sphincter, instead of just relaxing it?

Could it be the result of an imbalance in neurotransmitters?  My recollection is that there are lots of opiate and serotonin receptors in the GI tract.  I'll bet, though, that norepinephrine is the bad guy:

As a stress hormone, norepinephrine affects parts of the brain where attention  and responding actions are controlled. Along with epinephrine, norepinephrine also underlies the fight-or-flight response, directly increasing heart rate, triggering the release of glucose from energy stores, and increasing blood flow to skeletal muscle.   --   (from wiki)

Maybe emptying the stomach by opening the shpincter is part of the freeze, flight or fight response?  I wonder if a little alum might not tighten it up...   ;)

I'd have to guess that the sphincter is the culprit and not that stress/anxiety causes H. pylori to go into reproductive overdrive  --  the onset of symptoms can be just a matter of minutes.  Though I suppose that a relaxed sphincter and H. pylori could both be involved.

Of course, all this speculation would be moot if the sources of inappropriate stress and anxiety were eliminated...

Thanks River!  Knowledge is a wonderful thing!    ~eon
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on August 05, 2010, 10:12:03 PM
I have decided to start updating this thread to journal my progress in the ongoing battle with demon anxiety.

I have been using the shotgun/scatter-shot method  --  I'm trying a few things at once, not really caring which one(s) hit the mark, just as long as that ugly demon is whacked.  Whacked with extreme prejudice, I might add.

I have started using moclobemide, which has both anti-anxiety and anti-depressive properties.  My levels of anxiety and depression have definitely been reduced.  I have been very careful about maintaining a cautious distance from the triggers that provoked panic attacks, so I have no way of knowing if out-and-out panic has been dealt with yet.

I have also been using ~500mg of RB every other day, which enables me to use a very minimal dose of the moclobemide.  My logic is that moclobemide does not significantly increase dopamine levels (otherwise it would probably be one more drug of abuse) and the RB regenerates dopaminergic neurons.  The every other day dosing prevents buildup of stimulant effects which mimic some of the anxiety symptoms.  I think it was Roy who suggested that dosing schedule elsewhere.  Thanks, Roy!

(CAUTIONARY NOTE:  I started out with very low doses of moclobemide and RB and gradually worked up until getting good results.  Certainly large doses of either or both in unison could be unpleasant or even possibly fatal.)

I have also been meditating daily for an hour or two, usually in 1/2 hour increments.  That, along with the deep abdominal breathing used, has got to be a huge help, too.  While I find myself descending into depression and anxiety suddenly from time-to-time, just like a switch was thrown in my brain, I am getting skillful at turning that switch back off sooner and sooner.

I just scored a precious few 2mg Xanax bars from a toothless street person with the warning "Bad Impulse Control" tattooed across his forehead in big red letters.  The other street people call him "Ace" due to the incredible amount of hardware inserted in his nose, ears, eyebrows, lips and presumably in more personal locations as well.  This guy would never make it through a metal detector!

I got the Xanax to see if they would help me break the association that trigger activities have with anxiety/panic.  There is clinical evidence that such treatment is helpful with PTSD and valerian worked well in that regard, but with some most unpleasant side effects.

I tried 1/4 = .5mg Xanax today along with the moclobemide and RB and didn't feel a thing aside from some muscular relaxation.  So, I tried another 1/4 ~2 hours later.  I felt fine when I finally woke up!  Ah well, the sacrifices I make in the cause of science...

What is really good news is that on July 28, 2010, I went the WHOLE FREAKIN' DAY without any uncomfortable anxiety or depression!

YA-freakin-HOO!  That was the first day I can remember I can say that about.

Progress is being made, and I thank all of you kind people for putting up with my BS and offering advice from your hearts.  THANKS, it did indeed help.

More to come when I pull an anxiety trigger...

Eon
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Nganga Nobunoni + on August 07, 2010, 08:00:48 AM
Hiya Eon'

On a par with say diazapam' how much stronger would you think xanax is'
Would xanax be on a par with Rohipnol ? (seeing as the doses are .5-1mg)

Rohipnol is roughly 1mg = 10mg Diazapam' but obviousley rohipnol has a very long acting motabolite!

Cheers for the input and info'

Blessings and Light'

Nobu +
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: sanskrit on August 10, 2010, 06:21:01 AM
Hi Eon,

I have been feeling more hyper sensitive for the past 1.5 weeks after taking ibogaine to just about everything outside it seems that moves, is brightly lit or talks. I've had social anxiety for years anyway so it's not a big difference but I was surprised that there was no improvement there, in fact it seems to be more acute. What helps bring down my level of anxiety without feeling tired is something called "Calm & Calmer" (by Lifetime. I never forget the name because it reminds me of the movie 'Dumb & Dumber' lol). "Anti Stress Formula with Relora, Rhodiola Rosae & L-Theanine. LifeTime's Calm and Calmer is a natural anti-stress adaptogen formula that includes anxiety-lowering herbs and an amino acid working synergistically to stimulate calming anti-stress factors to help one feel relaxed, but not drowsy." Maybe that might help? Though maybe Iboga's work is still in progress and you might feel better in another few weeks.

Also consider a kidney tonic (can be found at trad. Chinese medicine clinics or health food stores) because when there's chronic anxiety, the kidneys usually are weak. It's said that toning them helps give the body more energy ('chi') and a feeling of inner strength. I'm out of the stuff but I remember it did help in my case.
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on August 11, 2010, 02:20:12 PM
Hi Nobu,

Here's a chart comparing benzo strengths and half-lives:

     http://www.non-benzodiazepines.org.uk/equivalents.html

Hi sanskrit,

The first times I used ibo, I got to some very spiritual places and found that I was very peaceful for weeks afterward.  Part of that is likely due to temporary relief from the situational things that had been causing me extreme anxiety.  The last time I used ibo, though, I found myself 'trapped' in the physical plane and unable to break through into a state of higher consciousness.  I experienced morbid visions of death, failure, hopelessness and other depressing and anxiety provoking scenes.  This topic on anxiety was started soon after that experience.  It literally took me weeks to bounce back.

'Coming out of the closet' regarding my long-term anxiety here on the Forum was really tough on me at first but definitely appears to have substantially benefited me.  Eboka is some powerful medicine, and maybe confronting sources of anxiety and depression was part of the healing process.  Sorta like getting a bad tooth pulled  --  first the fear and pain of having it yanked out, then more pain while it heals, and after what seems like forever, peace and health.

You surely know that ibo has stimulant properties.  Stimulants in general, such as caffeine, can aggravate anxiety.  I have been micro-dosing with root bark (RB) to help with depression and find I have to be careful not to use too much lest symptoms of anxiety appear.  Here's a question for you:  Are you really more anxious, or are you experiencing symptoms that are similar to those produced by anxiety?

Thanks for your suggestions regarding Calm & Calmer and kidney tonic.  You've got me wondering if the proximity of the adrenal glands with the kidneys is why kidney tonics are beneficial for the effects of anxiety.  I'm a huge fan of Chinese spirituality (Taoism) but know next to nothing about their medicine.  Perhaps it's time to learn...

I'd like to continue this discussion in hopes that it will benefit us both.  There are so many potential sources of anxiety  --  political, social, financial, etc.  --  in our modern world that just about everybody could use some help dealing with it.

Peace, Love & More Peace!

Eon
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: humility on August 26, 2010, 05:54:36 PM
Has anyone used Iboga for the sole purpose of getting to the root of what is causing their social anxiety?

Social Anxiety seems to afflict primarily introverts. I'm leaning toward SA being caused by not expressing emotion in the moment and instead holding it within. The one time I did a large dose of Iboga I threw up over twelve times and had 3-4 bowel movements. This is extreme. It's also remarkable because I was thin and had fasted on juice and water for five days preceding the experience. I'm wondering if all the evacuation had to do with releasing stored emotion. Does that make sense?
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on August 27, 2010, 03:00:38 AM
In some sense, EVERYONE uses iboga to get to the root of their anxiety here in our Western society, whether they realize it or not.  I say that because I see anxiety as endemic.  We all have it to some degree, some are just more sensitive than others.  I see anxiety as contributing to drug and alcohol abuse in most abusers.

Like peyote and ayahuasca, iboga can act as a psychic and physical purgative.  I only puked a couple tablespoons of iboga up once out of 5 experiences, but on the 5th time, while plagued with anxiety, I nearly shat my brains out.

Anxiety in particular caused me stomach problems from one end of my gut to the other.  Duodenitis on one end, irritable bowel on the other.  I am sooooo freakin' happy to be able to say that neither has affected me for about a month now.

While I did a juice and water fast for one week before a peyote meeting that solved an irritable bowel problem for many years, I do not see fasting as necessary for non-GI tract problems.  I shat out about 10 gallons (or so it seemed).  They just about had to drag me back into the meeting, but I am very thankful that they did.  Coming into the iboga experience well nourished is usually the best, I believe.

Eon
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: counterbond on September 06, 2010, 10:59:35 PM
Eon when I would have bouts of anxiety where I would be worrying that I would have a panic attack, taking some salvia calmed me down immediately and got rid of the attack instantly and it would never return either. I have always been a huge fan of salvia since the day I tried it and it will always have a place in my heart. I never had a bad trip not once on it either.   
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on September 07, 2010, 12:50:15 PM
Very interesting, counterbond!

A Forum member suggested using Salvia tea as an anxiolytic and antidepressant.  I tried it once, but did not notice any effect.  What I have been doing is making a quid of a single green Salvia leaf 1/2 hour before laying down to sleep, which I have found to be very helpful.

How do you take the Salvia to prevent panic attacks?  I recall having a mini panic attack after unexpectedly smoking a rather larger than anticipated dose.  Perhaps a smallish dose would work if smoked...

I have been thinking that sublingual dosing might be preferable to smoking.  The onset would be slower and the experience would last longer.  But, I have not made the effort to make a pure salvinorum extract to be able to try it.  Though using tincture sublingually did not produce a psychedelic experience, it might just work for anxiety.

I am interested in hearing your Rx!

~et
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: counterbond on September 07, 2010, 08:35:26 PM
I would smoke a little salvia before dealing with a situation where I was worried I would have a panic attack. I would be all wound up and muscles tensed and as soon as exhaling it would be like someone put a weighted jacket on me and my muscles would just give up... Reducing my anxiety instantly and telling me to just relax. Ten minutes later I'd be back to baseline and stress free. My gerbil smoked some last night and really enjoyed but would like to try quiding sometime something not so strong...
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: niceboat on November 02, 2010, 03:43:50 PM
Eon, look into this

Incensole acetate (IA), a Boswellia resin constituent, is a potent TRPV3 agonist that causes anxiolytic-like and antidepressive-like

http://www.fasebj.org/content/22/8/3024.full
http://www.mermadearts.com/info_pages.php?pages_id=23
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on November 03, 2010, 11:31:39 PM
Hey Y'all!  I done found the perfect remedy for anxiety!  No side-effects and it's absolutely FREE! (well, maybe not totally absolutely free...)

It's called "Eliminate the Source" and it's guaranteed to work or double you money back!  (That's double the money that you probably didn't have to pay, to be a little more totally exact.)

I sold my house, let my sister have her way, got rid of all the material crap that was holding me down, and blew smoke rings out of my ass as I left town.

What a spectacularly liberating experience!

niceboat,

I do appreciate your info on boswellia, nonetheless.  Anxiety is endemic in our modern world  --  even more so after the recent elections.  I'm starting to think that maybe a monarchy or dictatorship is preferable to our current form of government:  of the idiots, by the idiots and for the rich...

Anxiety will not be going out of style any time soon, far as I can tell.  Too bad we can't eliminate our socio-political problems as easily as I was able to weasel out of my personal ones.

I have seen boswellia extracts on the web but had not realized that it was the same plant that frankincense came from.  Should I ensnare myself in another anxiety producing situation to find out if it works?  Not for a while!  I'm looking forward to a nice, peaceful vacation ! ! !

~et
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: GratefulDad on November 04, 2010, 12:54:57 AM
The first part sounds like what I would have done.  I don 't stress over shit I can't change.  I don't get too anxious too often..
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: roy d on November 05, 2010, 10:34:14 AM

Hi Eon,

Hope your all settled in on your move.  Moving can be very stressful, I have a hard time lifting 40 lbs now and remember 10 years ago my wife and I moved all the stuff in except for a few heavy pieces - couldn't do it now for a million bucks.
Quote
Too bad we can't eliminate our socio-political problems as easily as I was able to weasel out of my personal ones.

I got a good anxiety reliever - your age.  I don't worry about lifetime guarantees anymore give me a 5 year guarantee.  Global warming is either going to come or not, there is nothing we can do about it and we won't even be here to see it.  I remember telling someone that just because the republicans get in office doesn't mean things are going to change.  I got a feeling there is a person ltao when I say to ya don't worry.  In another five or ten years you will be gone; if not you may wish to be gone.  A good buddy bit the dust a month or so ago and he was younger than me.  I plan to enjoy myself all I can in the time I got left.

Nice seeing ya again,

 Roy
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Calaquendi on November 05, 2010, 07:56:21 PM

It's called "Eliminate the Source" and it's guaranteed to work or double you money back!  (That's double the money that you probably didn't have to pay, to be a little more totally exact.)

I sold my house, let my sister have her way, got rid of all the material crap that was holding me down, and blew smoke rings out of my ass as I left town.

What a spectacularly liberating experience!

LMAO - good that you're back boss...
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: roy d on November 05, 2010, 08:37:51 PM

Hi Eon,

So your living in the country in WI, right?? 

 Roy
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: fallout330 on November 06, 2010, 10:20:00 AM

It's called "Eliminate the Source" and it's guaranteed to work or double you money back!  (That's double the money that you probably didn't have to pay, to be a little more totally exact.)

I sold my house, let my sister have her way, got rid of all the material crap that was holding me down, and blew smoke rings out of my ass as I left town.

What a spectacularly liberating experience!

LMAO - good that you're back boss...


Well said Eon  :D Good go see you again!
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Espiridion on November 16, 2010, 11:15:15 PM
.
.
Eon,
 I can honestly say that passionflower tea has been a lifesaver as far as anxiety goes. The real superstar for me, however, is a combination of Bacopa Monierri and SUB LINGUAL(super important!!!) GABA. I take half a teaspoon of Bacopa in a cup of coffee(yuck, but oh well) and a GABA under the tongue and I am always much better able to examine the anxiety from another angle. Sort of helps me remember that this is where the universe wants me at this moment whether I happen to like it or not and allows acceptance of my situation. I live like a spartan pauper due to learning how to go without things from a dark and nasty habit long ago in a 'past life'.  So relationship stress is the only stress I really have. I 'know' all will be okay in other arenas of my life.

I came to this board to ask the same question about anxiety, depression and especially post traumatic stress disorder. My significant other has massive bouts of depression and while we maintain with the above and other aminos I would like to have her try some TA. Microdosing would all she would go for. She has read to much into the flood dosing being so difficult, etc.

Anyway, not trying to hijack a post. Just offering what has helped me in the way of natural and effective supplements. Personally I think that while benzos help, they are just a bandaid and the amnesia issues are substantial. As an outsider looking in, my significant other does not realize how differently she acts while on them and has trouble remembering certain things. Read up on Bacopa, it has NO amnesia issues but calms in a similar manner to BZD's. Let me know if any of these things help your symptoms. Life will always be a roller coaster, just remember that you chose to ride.. ;)

I know everything will work out for you because it is all a matter of acceptance and knowing ones place in this vast expansive universe.

Be well,

Espiridion
.
.
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: tryl on November 17, 2010, 02:23:58 PM
I've found Kava very useful from time to time also....it is an interesting item because it takes up to several days of using it daily to get the effects...& it has "reverse tolerance", i.e. you need less of it the longer you take it. Finally, I've found that Baclofen is very helpful, very calming. A few of us over at our other forum found that it really helped us with those jittery, "wired" & wanting to jump out of your skin feelings we'd get during a detox or a rapid taper off opiates.

mine also. i have found kava to be practically useless.
now baclofen, that might be worth a shot. it's cheap and OTC where i am at, a GABAb agonist with a LOOOONG half-life, no tolerance, and remarkably similar to GHB (though much subtler). it's easy to taper down and get off it, if you end up dosing it daily for more than 2-3 weeks. but quitting abruptly will cause withdrawal, just as bad, and maybe even worse, than GHB. still, from all the anxiolytics i have been on, i have found this one most effective, with no unwanted side effects.

Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: sister on November 17, 2010, 02:26:33 PM
I would stay away from baclofen...   I have been on this med for MS.  Lots of problems with it.  But everyone is different
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: tryl on November 17, 2010, 02:34:14 PM
..and i just realized a quoted the wrong block of text.

anyways.

i suppose best advice would be to seek a herbal mixture that works.

pity that most herbs do little or nothing for me.
Title: Re: Anxiety Treatment
Post by: Eon T McKnight on November 17, 2010, 04:34:05 PM
Espiridion and tryl, THANKS for your suggestions and welcome to the Forum!

I have mixed feelings about using any substance, chemical or plant-based, to relieve anxiety over a long period.  On one hand, the use of BZDs for a week was heavenly.  It was like a vacation in paradise and gave me a much needed rest from what was bugging me.  When anxiety reaches a certain level, I find myself incapacitated and unable to deal with the source.

Indeed, the unpleasantness of high anxiety caused me to retreat from those things I was anxious about in a vain attempt to reduce the symptoms.  Of course, that only made the situation worse.  At times like that, some sort of chemical or botanical help to reduce anxiety levels is needed just to function.

On the other hand, using a substance to alleviate the symptoms can allow one to go on-and-on without ever addressing the cause of those symptoms.

In my case, the cause of my extreme anxiety was known.  Though I fooled myself into thinking that it was external conditions that were causing me anxiety, in reality it was my own stubbornness to move on and make needed changes in my life.  After unconsciously putting myself between a rock and a hard place, I was eventually left with no choice but to make the changes.

So now that I have eliminated the majority of things that were buggin' me, it will be smooth sailin' from here on out.  Right?  Yeah, right...

I guess that I should be glad and thankful that I am not about to settle back into complacency.  Ya see, I moved in with a very close friend who is killing herself with cigarettes.  There are 2 sources of anxiety here.  One is my concern for her, the other is concern for myself.  When I decided to move in with her, I never expected to immediately start worrying about where to go next.

The one thing that I wanted to learn but never did in my recent situation was how to control my anxiety level.  Anxiety has a purpose, which is to motivate us to eliminate the source of that anxiety.  Things don't make me anxious, I make myself anxious.  In some cases, I can eliminate those sources of anxiety.  In other cases, such as climate change, I cannot resolve them by myself.  In either case, allowing anxiety to build to a level that incapacitates me is a definite bad thing.

I am so happy to have this challenge that I can apply myself to (he said, rolling his eyes and shaking his head).


I came to this board to ask the same question about anxiety, depression and especially post traumatic stress disorder. My significant other has massive bouts of depression and while we maintain with the above and other aminos I would like to have her try some TA. Microdosing would all she would go for. She has read to much into the flood dosing being so difficult, etc.


Espiridion, microdosing may help your SO with the symptoms, but will probably not show her the root of the problem.*  Doses containing 450mg of ibogaine may produce visionary states in some folks that can lead to understanding and resolution of problems, but there is no guarantee.  Such doses do not entail the ordeal that full flood doses do and can be quite pleasant.  Has she seen a therapist?  It is my theory that someone who has been actively trying to understand him/herself will be able to use iboga to the best advantage.

Have you two read Claudio Naranjo?  He is a psychotherapist who used ibogaine in conjunction with therapy.

If your SO has interest in iboga, I suggest that she join the Forum and investigate personally before making any decisions.

Peace, Love and Illumination,

Eon

*  If her primary condition is anxiety with nervousness, tension, racing heartbeat, sweaty palms, etc., micodosing iboga could exacerbate the symptoms.  If depression is foremost, with lack of energy and motivation, microdosing is more likely to help.  ~e