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Eboka General => Eboka Journals => Topic started by: riverhaven on July 08, 2010, 08:57:15 PM

Title: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 08, 2010, 08:57:15 PM
Or not, depending on the day.  I started really slow at 100 mg and that was like nothing.  So the next day was 200 and I was starting to notice a change in mood.  Oh, this is rootbark I am using.  I did 250 the next day and definitely got the buzzing of iboga-- so that told me the stuff IS good. 

But today-- I am NOT feeling well.  I have sphenoid sinusitis, we had to switch antibiotics twice now and I feel awful-- now I have bronchitis and I am having a whole lot of trouble seeing-- typing was hard til just a bit ago.  So this isn't good.  I saw well enough last night when I weighed out my dose-- 250-- but I got sick today on it.  Not vomit- but sick to my stomach for a long time and lots of aches.  Is this the microdosing or the sinusitis going bad??  As a doc I know I have to go get seen tomorrow with the visual changes.  It's been going on all day-- my eyes are all red and puffy.  I've used artificial tears all day. 

I sure don't want to give up my micro experiment.  I think I need an ongoing source of ibogaine and the booster just didn't last long enough.  I am feeling so yucky and I sure don't want to spill my guts to my doc or any hospital docs that what I am doing and why....
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 08, 2010, 09:45:33 PM
River, you have my sympathy.  I had chronic sinusitis while working at a dusty location.  The pain was intense and continual; the pressure blurred my vision, too.

Unless you have a very tender tummy, I seriously doubt that 250mg of RB by itself would be making you uncomfortable or sick.  Perhaps it's the combination with the antibiotics  --  or just the antibiotics, for that matter.

Iboga often does tell us if we are consuming something unhealthy.  People give up all sorts of things after using iboga, maybe it's telling you those antibiotics are not a good thing?  It could be time to switch antibiotics again.  You know what they say:  "Third time's the charm."

Now that I have quit smoking, I can clearly smell iboga on my breath and body.  I have noted that the scent persists for days after taking only small amounts of RB (<1g) for a couple of days in a row.  So, I wouldn't worry about skipping 2 - 3 days or cutting back to only 100mg, some will remain in your system and be doing its job.

I admit, that isn't scientific, just my own perceptions.   I hope I have helped in some way.

I sure hope you're feelin' better real soon!        ~eon
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 08, 2010, 09:57:06 PM
Thank you
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Calaquendi on July 08, 2010, 10:02:27 PM
Hey river- what's the source of the root bark? There was some questionable material circulating not too long ago that seemed to generate some of these symptoms: namely the red and swollen eyes, etc.

IME I can 'feel' little on root bark unless I do a few grams. REAL good bark can prick my ears and have me noticing it around the one gram range, but these are very minuscule effects at those doses. Iboga is cumulative and seeing trails or bursts of light isn't uncommon, especially at night time. It is not unusual to microdose during the day and have no visuals until that evening.

Could all be coincidence and you are just having a rough time with sinuses like you said, whatever the case may be - I hope you get to feeling better soon.
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Nganga Nobunoni + on July 08, 2010, 11:51:07 PM
What colour is the rootbark when finely ground ???

I wish you a speady recovery brother!

Blessings' healing and light'

Nobu +
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 09, 2010, 12:07:50 AM
Cal, I doubt that even if River is doing the "questionable material" that she has done enough to affect her eyes.  I used 9g of that batch in micro and mini doses without eye problems.  She has only used 800mg so far  --  not very much.

Remember, your bro had the equivalent of 30 - 40g of RB.  How long were his eyes red?  Did they get puffy at all?

~et
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Calaquendi on July 09, 2010, 12:57:52 AM
Ok Eon, just checking. My brother only did like 2g of the extract - got heavy ataxia and bloodshot eyes for several hours, and that was about it. I'm sure you're right on about this - I didn't mean to freak anyone out or have them second guessing their shit  :-\. Just being curious I suppose. We may strike those comments from the record...I'm sure it's all good. :)
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 09, 2010, 01:18:08 PM
No striking comments from any records-- I HATE that--- there is something to learn from every post written!!!

Well I am back to loving my microdosing--- I used a wee bit less than 200mg today and got my pleasant ear buzzing- nothing more.  The new antibiotics, which gave me diarrhea so severe I probably spent 4 solid hours on the toilet last night 9 (I know, TMI-- but docs talk like that LOL), has also cleared up my sinusitis and eyes somewhat.  I feel soooo much better today.  I can do things...I can see!! 

My RB is iboga world and is a light tan finely ground and I do mean finely--  it's like baby powder. 

What I want from the microdosing is a mood improvement to help curb cravings.  I am not far enough sober that I don't think of using daily and plus being a chronic pain patient-- I can usually find a "good" reason to use.  I think the 200 mg is just right for me.  Thanks everyone
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Calaquendi on July 09, 2010, 02:20:09 PM
Quote
No striking comments from any records-- I HATE that--- there is something to learn from every post written!!!

...good on you, Doc!  :D

I'm glad this regimen is working for you - my brother is using a similar protocol right now and things are looking up. I think there are so many ways we can benefit from this mighty tool - it's good to see different approaches working!
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: niceboat on July 09, 2010, 02:25:53 PM
River,

you may find this thread interesting
https://dmt-nexus.com/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=13055

Soon I will join you at microdosing lovely Iboga  8)
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Nganga Nobunoni + on July 09, 2010, 03:53:31 PM
Nice one' all good to hear' the crap woods was kind of red' and very bitter'
The taste of Iboga becomes sweet when you diet it' it seems that the bitter taste is a reaction to toxins in the body'

Blessings and Light

+NNM+
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: roy d on July 09, 2010, 05:56:56 PM

Hi All,

It would be nice to know who sold the bad
stuff.  I know of a guy who got ripped off
from Shaman Extracts and SE must of lost
thousands of dollars of business and
rightfully so.

 Roy
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 10, 2010, 11:37:41 AM
Thanks for the link--- it was interesting reading until I read what caapi tea is-- I don't like psychedelic drugs at all.  LOL my shrink, Harry who did every drug known to man in Vietnam just can't believe I don't want to leave my body and fly thru the sky... well I don't LOL....

I don't know-- I am getting ickier nose snot, I have a worse headache and the eyes are still bloodshot-- but I can see.  I just can't decide if I am getting better or not.  It's damn serious having sphenoid sinusitis as it is in your brain--- if it busts-- you get a brain infection.  Just the pressure alone in the sinus causes all the eye problems and the headaches.  But if antibiotics don't work-- you get brain surgery... not something I really want to do.  But at this point I am thinking of trying to see my doc earlier in the week than I was... or going to the ER if my vision gets all blurry again.

In any case-- this morning I tried the 200 mg again- got a bit of nausea which was gone in about an hour--- and otherwise my mood, despite being so sick sure isn't bad.  I do think this microdosing works!  I also don't want narcotics... usually having a bad headache would make me take at least 3 or 4 Darvocets LOL...So it works on cravings too.  I do think that given what Sassy found in her research that at the three week mark micro-dosers get "wired"-- I want to get no where near the three week mark.  I plan to dose for 2 weeks then off one week.
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 10, 2010, 12:18:31 PM
I am wondering what the iboga guru's here think-- and yes, I know microdosing is very new.... but what if I took 150 mg in the morning and another 100 mg in the early afternoon.   Early enough to not ruin my sleep--- but far enough separated from the morning dose to have me avoid the nausea.  Yes-- I know you can avoid the nausea via enema but I am just not wanting to try that LOL....
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 10, 2010, 12:58:31 PM
Well, I'm no iboga guru, but...

I think that the nausea will probably go away after a few more doses unless the antibiotics are part of the problem.  In your first post you did not report any nausea with 250mg, why is it different now?

How about dosing the iboga first thing in the AM and then waiting a couple of hours before taking the antibiotics?  Even if you only do it once, that would tell you if the antibiotics are part of the problem.

Are you taking it on an empty stomach?  A little food may help  --  they give iboga root with plantains in Africa, do you like bananas?

As for splitting the doses, since ibogaine gets deposited in adipose tissue, you should be able to maintain the ibo glow by taking divided doses IF you are getting enough total alkaloids to accumulate.  And that will depend to some degree on your metabolism.

You may be joking about the enemas, but someone on the vox list proposed a recipe for making iboga suppositories.  As I recall, he suggested mixing it with cocoa butter and keeping the doses in a refrigerator until used.  You could put all your problems with nausea behind you.  (Gak!  What a terrible pun, huh?)    ;D

~et
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 10, 2010, 02:05:58 PM
ROFLMAO Eon-- you do make me laugh....ummm NO again to the enemas-- even with cocoa butter....

You may be right the antibiotics not only keep me on the toilet-- they make me sick to my stomach.  I take the iboga as I awake so I have an hour before any food-- but perhaps I should take it with food.  I just remember Sara refused you food for days LOL...  I live in FL so I can get plaintains and I LOVE sauteed plantains.   That would be an awesome breakfast-- thank you.

I think I will try the twice daily dosing and see how it works on my second week of microdosing before I quit for a week.  I still can't discount the antibiotics effects--- but at least I was on it both weeks so I can see how my body, on antibiotics, does with once daily versus twice daily...
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Calaquendi on July 10, 2010, 06:33:24 PM
Yo river! I think splitting the doses like that would be just fine...I've done it that way to good effect. And in these doses you probably will not be troubled by insomnia, at least not until it has built up over several days. Good luck and hope you feel better soon!
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Nganga Nobunoni + on July 11, 2010, 04:06:02 AM
Micro-dosing no cause nausia'

Psycho-somatic is your nausia'

The nausia of Iboga is caused by alkaloids flkoodong the brain'

200mg of RB has next to no alks in it at all'

50mg/1gram woods' so your 200mg woods has 10mg alks' this is slightlyu stimulating is all' shall last 12-16 hours'

Iboga is anti-viral and anti-bacterial'

It sounds as though you messed up your gut with anti-biotics' and are feeding psychosomatic emotions into the experience'

all the Best'

+NNM+
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: koko on July 11, 2010, 11:59:58 AM
well,i can feel the iboga in the minutest amounts,i am sure it is not psychosomatic too,i cant fake tracers!i feel very wired,sleepless,ataxia,but no visions,i think we are all different,and we must honor it-viva le difference'!( my attempt at french).cant imagine why such a small amount floors me,ta or rb.maybe my brain latches onto it ,like yeahhh,now we can do something different!weee!,lol!!!.i wouldnt really call the experience fun,more like enduring. hey ,river,have you tried a neti pot? i know when its real bad,its hard to get the flow from one nostril to the next,but they always help me,i use neti pot wash with it,and 1/2 noniodized salt & 1/2 baking soda.antibiotica and me dont get along well,so i take chinese formulas,i'll bet your ac could help,they have antiibotic formulas too.i am aware of the risk to let one go untreated,yikes,lets not go there!sometime ,i have got to hook you up with some of my formulas,i keep all kinds around,for sinusheat,headaches,you name it.i just dont do well on alopathic stuff,weird how a person can gobble down their DOC,when i think of hjow much tylenol ive taken,its daunting!yak,yak-koko
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: koko on July 11, 2010, 12:04:02 PM
oh,shit,i forgot why i started this post,the enema has very little fluid in in,like a 5-10cc syringe,filled with the solution,rather than a big ol' bag full,put in just past sphincture and hold it like as long as you can,at least that is what was told to me-koko
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 11, 2010, 01:41:03 PM
My experiences with microdosing not on antibiotics was that I got nausea when I went above 350 mg of rb.  I also got the tracers and the buzzing-- but that was all--none of it intolerable.  I think this time everyone is right-- my system is just all out of whack with the antibiotics.  As for a Neti pot-- that's how I got the sphenoid sinus infected-- shoving up the lower infection into this sinus in the middle of your brain that doesn't drain well. 
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Nganga Nobunoni + on July 11, 2010, 10:51:01 PM
Just to remember' anti-biotics kill good bateria in the gut along with the bad ones you are attempting to get rid of!

I can see this would make ones system very sensative to Iboga alks'

Iboga stimulates immune responce' there is no need of anti-biotics with Iboga' I can see the two making for some havoc'

Eat some porridge' sugar and salt' long chain sticky carbs' aid your liver and kidneys to clear toxins from the blood'

Drink lots of hig dose sodium ascorbate' this shall flush the system'

50mg Ibogaine gives immune responce' so I would dose 1 gram a day for 3-5 days' and drink tons of water'

N' as Koko said' hit some chinese herbs' get some adaptogenic effects through other plants with Iboga!

I wish you all the best' our nose is the centre of our being and it is a real bitch to get an infection there'

Blessings

+NNM+
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 12, 2010, 12:17:27 PM
Thanks Nobu-- I see a chinese medical doc regularly for my chronic pain/arthritis-- she put me on herbs for the sinusitis.  I am also taking probiotics three times a day to try to save some of my poor gut bacteria.  But yes--- something is just not right with this system.  Yesterday I had a flare of my autoimmune problems with my veins and ended back on narcotics.  So do I go back to microdosing like a chronic pain patient to keep from getting re-addicted ( ie 50 mg of rb)-- or do I do the 1 g ibogaine as you suggest to knock the sinusitis out.  It's clearly the stimulus to the entire problem.  I am sooo tired of feeling like crap and when the pains started yesterday with the rashes-- I honestly just cried. 
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 12, 2010, 12:25:25 PM
OMG -- look what I just found!!!!

http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1603397--- he talks about getting rid of his fungal sinus infection with iboga!!

Nobu-- when you say 1 gram--- is that rootbark as that is all I have . 
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: sassyfras on July 12, 2010, 07:23:06 PM
River, I think Nobu was saying that 50mg Ibogaine is equal to 1 gram(1,000mg)root bark. Great thread you have going here! It's interesting to hear how differently people respond to these lower doses of Iboga. I will start my own thread about my microdosing as soon as I have a bit more time. Unfortunately I've had to stop microdosing because I'm not sure that the product I have left here IS even root bark. I had ordered & received from Maya Ethnos, 5 grams of Gabon root bark )shavings)and 5 grams of Cameroon root bark(shredded), The Gabon root bark looked, smelled & tasted very much like the root bark I got from ShamanicX earlier, BUT...the Cameroon root bark is a different color(darker & kind of reddish) & it smells very strongly of incense & the taste is more bitter. After I ran out of the Gabon root bark, I took just a tiny bit of the Cameroon root bark because I wondered if maybe they sent me some incense by mistake~~~& both days I took it I felt unwell~~~extremely nauseated all day long.

I've been emailing back & forth with Maurice & he is pretty sure that it's NOT incense...he thinks it may have taken on the smell of the incense samples he sent along with my Iboga order. But the Gabon root bark from the same package didn't smell like that. I even poured the contents of the Cameroon rb into my mortar & pestle & left it to "air" out overnight but it still smelled like strong incense. I think I'm going to just send it back to him so he can see it for himself. He told me that root bark can come in quite different colors and the darker, the better, btw.

I was on day 11 of microdosing when I ran out of the good Gabon root bark and I was doing really well...very subtle but yet significant effects. So it's disappointing to have to stop now & wait until my next order arrives before I can start up again. Oh well, I guess I'll find out whether or not my tolerance goes up again during the time I'm not using Iboga.

I hope you're feeling lots better River....that was interesting about that fellow being cured of his sinus problems with Iboga! Seems as if Iboga "fixes" just about everything that we humans suffer from~~~~makes me wonder about the health of the B'witi who take it throughout their lives~~~or do they only take it a few times during their lives? I want to learn more about B'witi!
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Calaquendi on July 12, 2010, 11:41:30 PM
Sassy - Maurice is a stand up guy and if there was any discrepancy at all he will square it away. Gabonese bark is superior to Cameroonian bark usually. Also - if it didn't come from Maurice's mouth , I would have thought that lighter bark was stronger. He certainly knows more than me about this - I just thought it was vice versa. Interesting.  Best of luck!
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: x on July 13, 2010, 01:03:20 AM
Best bark I ever had was a dark brown, and on the inner side, when in the sun, I could see tiny sparkles. :)

Always good to ask where your bark comes from, too. Is it wild harvest or farmed? If wild harvest, is it harvested sustainably?
The demand has really increased, are you participating in making a natural resource unavailable to the people of the forest? This is happening in places.

Unless folk want to switch to microdoses with synthesized HCl, it will keep happening.

I realize this is a deeply unpopular thing to bring up. But I will.
Maybe you guys all already know where your bark comes from, and have asked your supplier, and are comfortable with the answer. I shouldn't be so quick to assume, duh.

Love,
Tia
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 13, 2010, 11:07:52 AM
I am seeing enough of the iboga effects with my iboga world root bark-- so I am not worried about it being good or not.  Indeed- if it was any better I'd probably have more problems taking it.  I know Sara was very particular about where in Africa she got her supplies from, though.  I think I am more worried about what else is in the rb we get-- things like pesticides??  We have no way of knowing....
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: x on July 13, 2010, 01:04:59 PM
Pesticides? So, you're sure Sara gets her bark from a source that uses farmed Iboga? If you are, just ask her if they use pesticides. I've never known her not to be forthcoming.
Most Iboga comes from the forest, you know, a jungle. No pesticides there. Just native folk, some Bwiti, who are seeing their source of Iboga dwindle because the westerners like it, so those looking to make a buck go and grab it, and there ya have it.

Tia
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: GratefulDad on July 13, 2010, 04:20:36 PM
With the tissue culture studies that were done, they can grow cultures on a medium that produces alkaloids, but doesn't need to grow huge trees over 10 years.  We need to start doing some work on that, and we could have our own cultures, which would be easy to extract.  Anyone have any experience with tissue culture?  If so, start a new thread, and give us whatever ya got!  This is the way to provide enough for everyone, and the way of the future.  We can leave the sacred trees for the Bwiti!
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 13, 2010, 05:38:14 PM
I did do tissue culture work in college-- LOL back in the late 70s so I doubt I am of any use.  But yes-- it would be nice to know the Bwiti have their sacred trees and we have ours and everything is done green and organic.  I have a pesticide phobia because my original problem narcotic wise was kratom--- and god only knows what is in that powder.  Not to mention they extract out the alkaloids and then spike what is supposedly plain kratom to hook people on it and have them have to order the higher percentage extracts.  It's all a business to the people selling these drugs.

Sara was incredibly honest-- I did speak to her when I was at her home about where she got her stuff and she did give me the name-- but I was too out of it to go and write it down.  But she did believe there is good and bad iboga out there-- and she'd gotten some bad so that it was important to her to personally meet and know her supplier.  I was sooo impressed with her I could go on and on LOL...  She's just one of those genuinely good people.
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: niceboat on July 14, 2010, 12:38:56 AM
microdosing for long long time, I found this paragraph interesting

For someone who was not an addict, but merely looking for spiritual or mental rejuvenation and change, could you administer the same dose?

"Yes, but it’s not always necessary. For the last two years or so I have been studying the effects of administering smaller doses over an extended period of time. I have found that if you take someone who has been given a high dose treatment and compare them with a person who has been given smaller doses over a longer time period, they reach the same point, albeit over a longer time. The outcome of treatment is similar. There are still major benefits of doing the “Full” experience though. The best way to describe the treatment is to call it a “Rebirth”. This is also a way to describe the heightened sensitivity that the patient feels on the second day – very much like being a baby again, so everything is new. You even have to start with easily digestible foods specially prepared, etc."
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Nganga Nobunoni + on July 14, 2010, 06:50:00 AM
All Maya products are top quality' I get samples of everything new and give of my accounts'

The dark N0 3 cameroon woods is ok' it is a bit rough on the stomach but it has average amounts of alks in it'

The top notch for this time is Gabon woods' it is on a par with IW woods' Also the powdered no.2 cameroon woods is top notch' you got to eat a few more grams than the Gabon woods' but still very good stuff!

The lighter the woods the better' the dark woods tend to contain a lot of voacangine' of which makes the iboga experience harder on the gut!

For those with sensative stomachs' eat your iboga witha bowl of honey sweetened porridge' it takes longer for the ibo to kick in' but works a treat for dosing and forgetting you took it!

Maurice is a top upstanding man' the woods you have are good woods' no the best you can get' but still quite high in alks'

Most of the Cameroon woods have been of a darker colour' except the no2 finely ground woods!
As I have said' I have sampled all of those woods'

As to the incence smell' Fresh dried Iboga smells somewhat spicey' until you grind it' then it smells kind of mushroomy!

All the Best

+NNM+
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Nganga Nobunoni + on July 14, 2010, 06:52:26 AM
Low dose versus flood dose regime for addiction'

Low dose only helps with the withdrawal'

You got to get powerful visions to get past addiction'

Low dose regime wires the client before the Iboga can wipe out bio-electic patterns in the body'

Bliss!

+NNM+
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: koko on July 14, 2010, 09:50:01 AM
hey yall,hi nobu,actually,eric did a gradual dosing method with me several years ago,and it worked great!everyone is different!-koko
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 14, 2010, 10:57:26 AM
Yeah koko, everyone is different.  Each case should be evaluated based upon the background and needs of the individual.  Treatment tailored to the individual is likely to be more effective than inappropriate treatment or no treatment at all.

For example, it is reasonable to assume that the psychological profile of a drug abuser is different from that of someone using opiates for pain management.  While the need for introspective visions to eliminate addictive thought and behavior is important for an abuser, that is not necessarily the case for someone addicted due to pain management.  At least that's the way I see it...


Hey niceboat, interesting quote!  I have used peyote in both large and mini-doses ( a single button a day) in the past and found benefits from both ways.  I see no reason that medicine like iboga should be any different.  That quote sums up my understanding very well.  Thanks!

Eon
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: koko on July 14, 2010, 11:09:25 AM
well,if i had never had a flood before,i could see how it would be beneficial,but i have done ibogaine 4 times.i still remember the 2 sessions that were very powerful,one was kinda lame cartooney nonsense,but a saw was going off in the neighborhood-yikes!,but i actually had the longest period of time without regressing after that one!so,go figure! the more i live,the more i learn there are no hard & fast rules,kinda like quantum chaos typa stuff,reality is pretty fluid & malleable,and rules suck,experts suck,being in the flow works best for me-koko
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 14, 2010, 03:52:58 PM
Well I don't really see chronic pain patients who get addicted as any different--- I can vouch for the fact that you still can't be trusted with a vial full of lortabs even if you got addicted because of pain.   I do think that once addicted--- you have changed your brain chemistry and if you have the right genes-- it stays in addict mode then forever.  Not that it's always a fight-- just always there.  My shrink, Harry got hooked in vietnam with according to him, every other soldier over there.  He says there is a huge number of those guys who came back, did no rehab and dropped the drugs forever.  I say they just didn't have the "addictive gene"-- if you want to call it that.   Then of course there are the train wrecks who never made it back to real life after Vietnam thanks to all the drugs.  Harry had to do a lot of rehab.  I know once I got addicted to morphine in the hospital after encephalitis- my brain was never the same.  I used to be able to have a glass of wine with dinner once a week or so.... after than one glass was never enough...
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 14, 2010, 05:54:49 PM
"there is a huge number of those guys who came back, did no rehab and dropped the drugs forever."

Similarly, chronic pain patients without addiction genes should be able to do the same.  However, genes or no genes, everyone still gets physically addicted to opiates and will experience withdrawal that can be treated with iboga.  Those without the predisposition for addiction are those where moderate doses of iboga should be most effective.

The big question is:  "Which group of addicts does the patient belong to?"

"genetic tests could be used to determine which genetic variation a patient has and prescribe the best addiction medication for that individual."

     (from  http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/addiction/genetics/  )

Please don't take this as being argumentative.  I am simply trying to make a case for more flexible use of iboga.  If a significant group of addicts could be helped by 50mg a day of ibogaine without side effects (e.g visions), the likelihood of it ever being legalized increases.  And, many more people would be able to benefit from treatment.

If there were more data available on alternative dosing (i.e. non-flood) then perhaps that woman in San Miguel Allende would not have died.

Me, I'm addicted to questioning authority...      ;D

~eon
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 14, 2010, 07:00:17 PM
I like having discussions Eon-- debates even.  I agree with you that after about a week-- anyone is addicted to opiates and will go thru some sort of withdrawal.  I think it is ABSURD docs don't do a damn thing to handle this-- they don't even mention after the typical several weeks on narcs after a broken bone that stopping them cold turkey is going to be a bitch.  I think that EVERY patient put on narcotics for more than a week or two needs to also be sent home with a withdrawal kit-- a few clonidines, some valium/clonazepam, and boy would some iboga rb be great etc and the notion do NOT cold turkey, taper.  They don't do that-- plus they go writing for oxycontin like it's water-- so lots of patients get addicted for something simple like they broke their wrist. 

I know a short term addiction will require a lot less treatment than a long term heroin addiction, but it is the same thing.  The person is going thru withdrawals and needs help.  There is NO help right now for the average Joe who gets hurt on the job, takes narcotics -- probably oxys for his pulled back for 6 weeks-- then the docs won't write anymore scripts and he starts on his merry trek into the world of under the table narcotics.  On the other hand-- there is "help" for the heroin addicts in the form of inpatient prison like rehabs at 20 grand for 3 weeks.  It's absurd.  The problem is the same that both ends of the spectrum have--- and aftercare for the long term abuser needn't be inpatient.  To me, it would be easier to have a set way to get people off the drugs and then those that were short term or chronic pain addicts go back to their primary doc, long term users go into the aftercare of their choice.

Right now-- there's none of that-- just a bunch of pain centers out there marketing the wonderful suboxone to addict us to that.    In my perfect world, docs would get taught in med school the powers of opiates-- because we aren't.  All we get told is addicts are the bad guys who use after the pain from the injury is gone-- and need to be gotten rid of ASAP....  UGHH.... as a chronic pain management specialist I saw a lot of the other doctor "rejects".  And they were either chronic or acute pain patients who got hooked and couldn't get off, or they were long term users who were trying to use me to get some more drugs.  It's a shame, the state of how pain and pain medicine addiction is treated in the US.
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: roy d on July 15, 2010, 09:12:22 AM

Hi River,

Have they isolated the addiction gene yet?

 Roy
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: sassyfras on July 15, 2010, 03:22:18 PM
Thank you so much, Nobu, for that info about the woods from Maya! I'm pretty sure now that the darker Cameroon woods I got IS actually Iboga and not incense. You're right about it being harder on the stomach...I felt very nauseated both days I tried it. My new order just came in, I now have 25 grams of the lighter powered Cameroon woods and a 10mg vial of their new Iboga tincture. I have not taken any Iboga at all for the past 4 days now because I ran out of the Gabon woods & didn't trust the darker Cameroon woods, but I'll start microdosing again tomorrow morning.

But first I need to find out how many drops of that new tincture it will take to make 300 - 500mg. of root bark as that is the dosage that was working well for me with the root bark. If anyone here can help me figure that out I would be very grateful!
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: GratefulDad on July 15, 2010, 05:04:48 PM
It was 20mg/ml, I believe..  So for 300 mgs it would be 15 mls.  For 500 mgs it would be 25 mls..
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 15, 2010, 07:08:19 PM
Good luck Sassy with the new stuff.   You are so much more adventurous than me-- I'd be afraid to be trying all these different types, refiguring out doses etc LOL....  The iboga stuff is very light colored too-- which must be why I have less nausea with it than the darker stuff from shamanic.   I have also gotten used to it plus it works better for me as a morning dose and an early afternoon dose. 
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: GratefulDad on July 15, 2010, 07:43:48 PM
I'd test it all!!  I'd like a sample of every tree in Africa!!  lol, just kiddin', I am not that greedy! :P
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: sassyfras on July 15, 2010, 08:05:10 PM
Well River, I'm not THAT adventurous...I'm not going to start using that tincture until I've got the dosage conversions down pat!

GD, yeah, that's how my math worked out too, but it doesn't make any sense~~I mean at those numbers I'd need to swallow my entire 10ml vial just to get the equivalent of 200mg root bark. That 10ml cost 89.00 so that would make the tincture an impossibly expensive way to use Iboga!!! I suppose I should never assume ANYTHING while still so new to Iboga....I assumed that as a tincture it would be highly concentrated and that just a few drops would be enough.

Hey...I just thought of something...ok, 300mg of root bark is very different from 300mg of TA or 300mg ofIbogaine 98%HCI, right? This tincture is "TPA HCI 1:50 (20mg/ml" so we need to figure out what those 20mg would be in terms of root bark. IDK, maybe I'm not even making sense, lol. I just feel that something is not right here...no one would buy this tincture if it was so weak that you'd need to drink whole vials of it just to microdose, right?

I hope one of you very knowledgeable people is able to figure this out so I can start using this!!
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: GratefulDad on July 15, 2010, 08:52:41 PM
Well, if it's 10 mls, and it's 20 mgs of pure or precipitated total alkaloids per ml, that would mean it's 200 mgs in an alkaloid solution.  You would get about 20 mgs from 500 mgs of lower quality rootbark or maybe 200-250 mgs of high quality rootbark.  That would be equivalent to about 200 mgs of ibogaine HCl, but may feel significantly different since ibogaine HCl is not the only active alkaloid that gives effects from bark or TA. 

Lambarene was an ibogaine medicine used in as low as 8 mgs every so long for a period of time, I believe..  There is a post in this thread, here: http://eboka.pkeffect.com/index.php/topic,268.msg2359.html#msg2359 about lamberene, which consisted of 200 mgs of extract, which contained 8mgs of ibogaine per tablet.  So I think maybe a long regimen of tiny doses may build up in the system, but they were obviously getting something from it at that dose or it wouldn't have sold.

For most of our purposes in fighting addiction, I think the opiates probably numb us to some of the effects, and so it requires much larger dosing to feel it as much as someone who was not on anything, or particularly sensitive.  I am not sure, but it would seem that it is just a further refinement and process, that would add to the price.  It might be real nice stuff, or an easy way to dose, but then again for the cost, you could get at least a gram of TA, which would probably go a lot farther.  I have trouble getting a flood with bark, but for low dosing, eating under a few grams every day isn't that tough, and I figure iboga is probably good for my guts, lol...  I'd get bark, and do the extracting or tincture making for myself.  It's not that tough to do if you want to learn..

BTW, decent bark is said to have about 4-6% alkaloids, and I have heard even higher, or almost double that in older special trees.  At 4-6% alkaloids, 100 grams of bark would give 4-6 grams of pure TA.  It would probably give you around 8-12 grams of the freebase, using my method, and I think some others.  So the freebase TA would be around 40-50% pure total alkaloid.  I think Tia said the TA she uses was about 35% and I think the IW TA is probably around 40-50% pure, from just guessing from eating it.  The thing is, that ibogaine is probably what is the most in the bark, but the other alkaloids have different effects and last different amounts of time.  These other alkaloids can alter the trip, so pure ibogaine might feel a lot different. 

I haven't tried 98%+ HCl, and I am not even sure I'd want to.  That is nearly pure ibogaine HCl, which gives the effects of ibogaine only, no ibogaline, which is said to be stronger than ibogaine, ibogamine, tabernanthine, coronaridine, voacangine, and possibly several others.  I think Nobu posted a partial list on the forum somewhere that lists the known alkaloids off Tabernanthe Iboga.  But as you can see, with all those actives, the TA or the tincture or bark can give a very different experience than pure ibogaine might, but I don't have the experience myself.  From what I heard from those who have, they say the TA is a much smoother ride, and has longer lasting effects.  I will probably tell you how I feel one day, but I currently and using plant materials as it's the most economical way.
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: sassyfras on July 15, 2010, 11:31:18 PM
Wow, great answer GD, I really appreciate your taking the time to clear that up for me! I think I have it figured out now...since it takes approx 30 drops to make 1ml, I think I'll start by taking just 15 drops to begin with, just to get the feel of this new form of Iboga. The tincture is said to contain the full spectrum of alkaloids, which is what I want. I'm no longer interested in the 98% HCI, I prefer my foods & medicines in their whole forms.

In spite of being on opiates, I think I'm quite sensitive to Iboga. I definitely went on an unexpected trip that day I took 1,000mg root bark instead of the usual 300 - 500mg, lol.  I'm going to start my own microdosing thread here once my life settles down a bit...I just have too much going on right now to do that. It drives me crazy to pop in here & see all the interesting conversations going on and not having the time to join in the fun!

Yeah, I read that post about the Lambarene. I wonder if any athletes are secretly taking Ibo these days. I doubt if they would be tested for that and I don't doubt that it would be effective. I would love to be able to read what the people taking it back then thought about it, how often they took it,etc. Someone must have written about that at the time...

I agree that the tincture is not a very cost effective way of using Ibo. I guess I was just curious & want to try Iboga in all the forms it comes in. I would also like to experiment with different herbals to take along with the Iboga that might help "mellow" that slightly wired feeling it can cause when taken in small doses daily. I wonder if passionflower would help with that. I got a bit nervous after reading Nobu's description of people just getting "wired & psychotic" when they do this....I certainly felt a little wired, even after only 5 days of 300mg rb daily, but hadn't quite hit a psychotic phase yet! This is why it's so important for us all to record our experiences with whatever way we are using Iboga.

Ok, I've read lot of references to the Ibo "afterglow", but just today as I was reading through the Ibogaine List posts I saw a reference made to the "Ibo bodyslam". Sounds a bit rough....can anyone here speak to that?





Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: GratefulDad on July 15, 2010, 11:39:44 PM
I think that person might be here, who mentioned the ibo bodyslam.  But you might just ask them on the list, because I am not familiar with an ibo body slam.  I imagine he meant that he didn't feel good during or after the trip.  I would venture to bet it was because he took HCl, and not as much as I would recommend.  He did have a fairly low dose of SAO's to come off of, so I think he figured that he should be cautious.  I also believe he was getting older.  I would think all of those things might be what made him experience the "ibo body slam", as he calls it. 

But I am pretty sure iboga will tell you when to slow down or stop.  If you are feeling wired all day, not getting proper rest, or having symptoms you don't enjoy, then it may be time to take a few days, or so, break.  I just do 2-4 grams of bark whenever I get the urge, then stop for a few days.  It usually is a few days in a row dosing, then a few days off.  Seems to tell me when to use it.  The days I do, I feel good that I have, and the days I don't, I feel fine, too.
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: roy d on July 16, 2010, 11:48:44 AM

Hi SAS,

For me each Ibo Experience is different.
We all know the pain and suffering of
addiction and the w/d.  Well sometimes
Ibo works great is releaving the aches,
pain, chills, hot flashes, etc.  It often
turns a raging flu into a cold.  A cold
is not all that bad.  Sometimes you can
wake up and feel charged and so glad
your clean.  Other times it does not work
for some reason.  Maybe you body was
low, or you were not eating, or you were
suffering from something, who knows.
But sometimes you feel the pain of
w/d, maybe not full force but bad enough.
Well you know w/d is like getting hit by
a truck or a body slam.  Sometimes Ibo
can help you escape 80-90% and
sometimes maybe 50%.  But it is still
better than the cold turkey method. 
Also, if your experiencing  pain the
Ibo relieves the pain for 30 days and it
reduces cravings for 30 to 90 days. 

Also the person had the pukes for 22 hrs
he said he didn't eat much the day before
so the condition a person is in at the time
can have a lot to do with it.  And it was
the HCL.  He used 1.5 gm of the HCL
and was blitzed for two weeks.  He
posted "There is a lot of difference
between 1gm and 1.5gm."

Hope that helps,

 Roy
 
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 16, 2010, 01:01:29 PM
So, GD-- you only take a few days off--- not a week or ten days?  From my reading of studies on chronic pain patients, who were admittedly on the HCL-- they did them 3 weeks on 10 days off.  But then I also found some case studies where people were using it every other day.  I am coming up soon on two weeks on it- gradually increasing my dose and splitting it so that now I can tolerate over 350 mg a day.  Plus I am wired now thanks to the stupid steroids for my brain abcess.   I was thinking that if the wired feeling continues even when the dose pack is done-- at about the two week mark of taking off my microdosing- but only for maybe 4-5 days.  10 days just seems to long, like I will be re-starting from day one again.   I know it builds in your fat-- but by 10 days it will be pretty much depleted at the low doses I am on.  I really hope with the next 2 week try I can get up to 500 a day-- that seems to be the minimum for what I want-- to keep from being tolerant to the narcotics I do need. 

Anyone with suggestions for my kind of chronic pain as per my microdosing??  I don't have constant pain, I get horrific flares where I end up having to almost overdose to ease the pain.  This lasts for a couple of days and then I can be fine for a couple of weeks, even doing Pilates, going to the gym, living a life.  I've even learned to just do that-- save things up for tolerable days.   But I can't figure out a way to draw out the flares to be further and further apart by smartly using the iboga.  Does anyone else??
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: GratefulDad on July 16, 2010, 03:43:43 PM
Yeah, I don't pay attention to what the medical models and studies say, so much.  I mean I read them, gather what info I can, but when it comes down to deciding how and what to put in my body, I think I'll stick with trusting myself.  I know if I am not feeling good, and if I am not, I just figure out why.  Then I work on fixing that problem.  Since I am not on any pain meds, and don't really have to eat iboga to feel great, I just do it when I feel it might be a nice day for something a lil more fun.  I guess I should be keeping a journal, and recording how I do it, but I just haven't started one.  I can always feel a little iboga in me, now, since my last flood, and I plan on keeping it in me for a good bit.  It's nice to just take something when you want to feel it, but to not need it..  I am trying to plan some kind of date down the road for another flood, with the 85/15 this time.
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: roy d on July 16, 2010, 05:07:15 PM

Hi HH,

When you take RB do you notice
that you don't get very high on
weed and if you do it don't last
long?

Best,

 Roy
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: GratefulDad on July 16, 2010, 06:05:45 PM
You know, I hadn't really noticed that.  But then again, the last several days since I returned from the festival this weekend, I have only smoked a bowl or two a day.  I just haven't had the urge to smoke as much.  I still get a decent high, it just isn't as remarkable from my tolerance, and the iboga may play a small role in that.  I will pay more attention when I smoke, though.  I smoke so much weed, normally, though, that I often don't get that high or it doesn't last that long, without any iboga.  Cannabis down regulates receptors when they are constantly flooded.  It doesn't work on the reward centers in the brain like opiates, and stuff.  So when you use a a whole lot, very often, you actually get less high, than someone who smokes a little bit once in a great while.  They see a much larger contrast, so they feel higher, for longer. 
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: koko on July 16, 2010, 06:41:19 PM
hey yall,yeah,i can barely drive w/ the weed-koko
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: sassyfras on July 18, 2010, 01:43:02 AM
Thanks for explaining the "Ibo Body Slam", Roy & GD, makes perfect sense. If I ever decide to go for a flood dose of Iboga, I will be sure to do it very close to home....because my FM/CFS causes me so much extreme fatigue even just from doing normal daily activities, I think the aftermath of a flood would likely make travel quite difficult.

River, I read somewhere about Sara advising a larger weekly dosing for chronic pain patients rather than the daily microdoses. I'm sure we'll find our own answers over the next weeks/months of trying different versions of the microdosing. And then there is the matter of which form of Iboga will work best for us too. I used that new tincture from Maya Ethnos for the first time today & found that it had a slightly different "quality" than the root bark has. It's very strong & really burns the inside of your mouth, but all in all, it felt considerably smoother than the root bark did, with no wired feeling at all. Of course that could be due to the fact that I've just taken a 5 day break...

Although all of us smoked pot in the '60's, I never did so with any regularity because it made me too high & for too long...always a very intense & profound experience. Haha...I sometimes describe "state of the art" humans as those with high R.P.M.s ( revelations per minute ).That's what always happened with me on pot....I could ask any question, about anything at all, & be gifted with a revelation. I didn't want to be around anyone when in that state so I usually went off to some quiet & private place like a secluded beach or a forest path. I loved being in that state of mind(lessness) but I was always left with so much to process that I wouldn't feel like doing it again very soon. I hadn't done any pot at all for years when I was invited to a birthday party last summer where they were passing around platters of these delicious cookies.....I ate only one....& was VERY high for over 8 hours. That really took me by surprise. I hadn't done any other drugs or alcohol since going on a full time opiate pain management regimen 6 years earlier and I didn't think I'd feel anything much at all because of  being on opiates. I felt like I was on acid, I couldn't believe it! The other guests were gobbling down 2 or 3 of those cookies & didn't seem to be getting very high, they seemed more drunk than high to me and I was getting desperate to get away so I could be alone with that lovely state of mind. To this day it still seems strange to me when I see people smoking weed every day but not appearing to really get high at all...it's more like they're just having a couple of beers or something.

But much later that same evening my beautiful trip started turning into a nightmare~~~really bleak visions of death & destruction & hopelessness~~~~I felt so fragile & vulnerable & suddenly so very alone. It finally dawned on me that I had forgotten to take my opiate meds and that I was going into withdrawals. I know I would not use pot to help with WD's, no way, but some people say it helped them, hard to imagine!



Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: GratefulDad on July 18, 2010, 08:58:13 AM
If you smoke it more often, those effects you describe get less intense.  Whatever your mind focuses on you will over analyze.  That is why people get paranoid, or panicky, on herb.  If you start small.  Take a few puffs to just start to feel it, then wait an hour, and do it again, you could gradually build up a tolerance, and then you would feel more like people who smoke it all the time.  Cannabis, especially on an opiate trained mind, can affect this as well.  Before opiates I never felt what you described, but after kicking them in 04, I started to notice those "negative", paranoid feelings.  Rather than quit, I knew pot wouldn't hurt me, so I new they were irrational thoughts, and I found by not waiting more than 8 hours to smoke, I lost those effects.  After iboga, cannabis, greatly reduced my sensitivity to the goosebumps, and minor PAW symptoms.  This is much different than smoking it in real withdrawal.
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 21, 2010, 10:56:08 AM
I am into my first lay off of microdosing.  I did a full two weeks- slowly building up to 500 mg at the end.  I used the light colored rb from iboga world and I am glad I did as Nobu said the darker stuff is harder on your tummy and that was my major side effect.  I never got to feeling wired-- something I didn't want.  I'd say over the two weeks my mood slowly improved, my cravings decreased and while I had a flare of my vasculitis I needed MUCH less narcotics to contain it and it never went to a full blown flare with a large painful rash.  I am really happy with the "experiment".  I got my second shipment yesterday so I can re-start whenever I want and I think I'll just go 4 days, maybe 5 before restarting.  I read some papers where chronic pain patients were using every other day.  I include myself with them as I do try to spend more time OFF narcs-- I end up on them too often and I want to stay un-addicted and keep my tolerance low.  So, for someone like me-- I think an every other day microdose of iboga would give me a more even coverage so that when I do flare- I only have to take small amounts of narcotics.  I don't want to flare in the midst of a 10 day lay off of iboga.  I also don't want to empty my fat stores of the iboga-- I really liked the mood improvement it gave me.  I am afraid laying off for 10 days is just too long.  I am trying to do as GD and Tia both say-- listen to your body. 

So far, my opinion is the microdosing does improve mood, gets pretty much rid of PAWS, kept my narcotic usage low yet still effective and also decreased my flare up.  Not bad.... well worth it.  I don't mind being a guinea pig either-- I have never believed that everyone needs the same dose per kg of things-- you need to listen to what your body needs and you take as little as you need to do the job.

I also spent the weekend at a seminar for my micro-electrical stimulation unit that got me completely out of arthritis pain ( along with acupuncture)-- I learned about CES stimulation for use with substance abuse.  You put the electrodes over the TMJ joints-- a lot of cranial nerves run in this area and it provides electrical stimulation to also change your brain waves back to "normal"-- ie non-addictive.  I've done it now every night since the weekend and it's helping a TON with cravings.   
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: roy d on July 21, 2010, 01:55:21 PM

Hi Sas,

Do you by any chance want to do an Ibo detox but a little bit afraid?  If you want it for detox and you have the money get a few grams of the HCL and do 1/2 gram and lower you dose of narcotics or drug you want to detox from and see how it affects you.  Then you may want to do a gram or 1.5 gram depending on weight, health and your objective.  If this sounds good run it by Tia just to be sure.  That way you could get an idea of what it is like.  Some people (very few) like the experience while others are neutral.  It is an ordeal, puking, not eating, not sleeping, being buzzed for a few days.  The last time I was buzzed for two weeks.  Yesterday I made a coffee, the second or third time in over a hundred days, much less sugar and soda.  Now is Ibo still in me or has there been a permanent or semi permanent change in my brain?  I mean a physical change, one that can be seen with a MRI or detected with an ECG.

Comments Welcome,

 Roy

Just an Idea,

 Roy
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 21, 2010, 02:24:05 PM
Sassy and I are old friends and we've discussed her doing a flood numerous times with me monitoring her.  I just don't think that getting off narcotics is a realistic opportunity for her.  She's going to need them for her conditions.... in addition, she's ill enough and old enough that a flood would be a drastic experience for her.  We both decided to try out the microdosing for the same reasons-- to still use narcotics as needed at a low dose and to get rid of PAWS.   But for those two things-- the increasing tolerance, the tie to the narcotic via withdrawals and PAWS that keeps you tied to them like a ball and chain.  Sassy and I both want to find a way around it but still be able to use narcs as needed.  Sassy as you all must have noticed has a spiritual awareness that few people in this world have-- I think our spending time together doing a mini-flood might benefit both of us-- but a full flood I think is too much for her and wouldn't benefit her in the long run.  She will probably always need some oxys.  So what....what she needs is to be functional.   And that's our goal now for both of us-- find a functional place.
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: roy d on July 21, 2010, 02:38:32 PM

Hi Sass,

The tincture may also be 20mg of Ibogaine per ml rather than 20mg of the of the TA it really is hard to tell.  They seem like nice people why not write them a e-mail.  Either way 1ml a day for 10 days will not hurt you.  I take a pinch now and then.  I weighed it once and it was 160mg which would be 8mg of Ibogaine just like the Lambean (sp) that they used to sell in France except I would also be getting ~4mg of the TA.  Also, fun facts to know and tell - the Olympic committee test for Ibo.  Hey, if it is banned you know it has to work.  After all a person competing in the Olympics would not waste their time if it didn't work.

Hope I helped,

 Roy
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: roy d on July 21, 2010, 02:58:26 PM

Hi Eon,

Do you want to tell others where you got the "questionable material" so they can avoid the pitfalls of the ripoffs?

I hate ripoffs,

 Roy
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Calaquendi on July 21, 2010, 03:47:56 PM
Those are good goals and well withing reach for what you're doing. Just continue to take the care you have been taking and please keep us posted! Best of luck to you both!
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 21, 2010, 04:48:49 PM
Thanks Cal-- Sassy is a dear friend and I worry over her incessantly LOL..... for her part she sent me a quilt to take with me to Sara's in Amsterdam to help me thru my trials there.  That's now my protective blanket.    She's a part of me now and so I jump in with both feet when the thought of a full flood comes up with Sassy in mind!

I think we are finding a way to use iboga without going all the way that will at least benefit people like Sassy who just couldn't do the full flood.  I think I am lucky my kidneys didn't shut down.  I couldn't keep down enough liquid to keep my body hydrated. 
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 21, 2010, 04:52:22 PM
Hi Roy,

It was not a ripoff situation but an honest mistake, I sincerely believe.  I spoke with the vendors and promised not to drag them through the mud since they were already in the process of replacing the bad batch.  I am going to honor my promise to them.

Believe me, that promise was only good for as long as I am confidant that it WAS and honest mistake and reparations were made.  If I thought they were ripping people off, I would shout it out at the top of my lungs (USING CAPS LOCK, OF COURSE).

~eon

Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 21, 2010, 05:58:19 PM
This isn't a private forum-- why would anyone say who did or didn't provide appropriate medications?
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: koko on July 21, 2010, 06:28:39 PM
hey yall,good thread.river,wouldnt it be great to be able to just do an iv if someone were becoming dehydrated,maybe already have in a heplock already in place before it goes south.i wouldnt want anyone messing with me during a flood,but after,why not?-koko
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 21, 2010, 08:08:09 PM
exactly koko I could do that...
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: koko on July 21, 2010, 09:51:15 PM
so could i-k
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: GratefulDad on July 21, 2010, 09:58:12 PM
I don't think an IV would be necessary unless the person started puking a whole bunch.  I mean people should be told to drink plenty of fluids the days leading up to.  It's not like iboga is gonna make you dehydrated, unless you start puking a lot, and then I'd only want an IV if I had to have one.
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: koko on July 21, 2010, 10:41:28 PM
i agree gd,but i would a whole lot rather have my fluids replaced somewhere comfortable than under some fluorescent light clinic/er,river & i have been fantasizing about being able to provide some medical intervention if needed in a cool setting,like for folks that were on the edge of not meeting criteria,to make it more accessible to some .i really would rather not be messed with at all during a treatment,but its soothing to know if i go haywire that the person treating me would have a clue. like the melding of underground/lay person with medical model,if need arises. i learned how to do acupuncture as well to add to my skills,naturally in the recovering stage,not the flood or day or 2 after,like we all say,the iboga does the work,just some brainstorming-koko
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 22, 2010, 12:36:34 AM
Having certainly done my share of puking, I might have learned something y'all might find helpful.   :-O~~~~~~

That first gusher is usually not so bad.  Sometimes it will be the only one.  But if I keep it up, it gets harder and harder as there is less and less to get rid of.  Of course, the dry heaves are the worst.

If it looks like I'm going to keep ralphing, I start drinking water.  Horking up water is sooo much more pleasant than dry heaves.  In addition, the water washes out the stuff that is upsetting the tummy.  If I'm lucky, I'll toss up each glass of water within a minute and be out of the bathroom within 15.

By drinking at least a glass of water after each barf, I end up with a last glass of water in my belly, which is soothing.  At the end of the ordeal, there is 1 fresh glass glass of water on-board and minimal fluid loss.  I don't know if they teach this in med or nursing school, but it has worked for me many times in the past while using a variety of plants.

~et
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: x on July 22, 2010, 10:34:46 AM
On heplock/IV fluids, that's being done in the clinics.
When traveling to someone, kinda hard to explain that in luggage. ;) Same with oxygen tank, lol.
So, not really feasible for UG, unless UG gets a stable house somewhere.
Like GD said, push fluids the day before. Drink a gallon of liquid the day before.
We are there to keep them safe. Dehydration is a concern, but easily remedied.

my penny,
Tia
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: koko on July 22, 2010, 11:18:00 AM
hey yall,yeah i know for me,when i vomitted,only 2 of the 4 floods,it was there,i puked ,then it was over,since i didnt resist it,it just got incorportaed into my trip.i dont think i could get up,or drink water during a flood,and never had to so far.i think i would use zophram,ginger,and at the clinics they used anti-nausea med with test dose.i know we give clinics kinda a hard rap,but i felt os cared for when i went.whereas,my last experience,i felt kinda neglected,even though the sitter was in the adjoining room,i neede more attention,when he was relieved by a lovely lady,we talked 7 laughed,i felt SO much better-koko
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Calaquendi on July 22, 2010, 02:50:27 PM
Yo - puking on iboga, even a flood, isn't a certainty. I'd say it happens about 50/50 - at least this has been my own experience and that of my friends. Many things depend on whether or not someone will purge, and how severe that might be if it does happen. I know poor GD puked his brains out off and on for about 20 hours - BUT- he was kicking methadone, and that shit gets DEEP in you and so must be gouged out with force. The lesser the physical detox, the less general discomfort and sickness we will experience. Iboga will definitely curb the withdrawal, but it won't eliminate our bodies' needs to purge itself of toxins. Some folks are more sensitive to the vertigo than others. This is like motion sickness and will come in waves. I think that the main part of this comes as the iboga is rushing up on you, you will have ataxia (sometimes for a couple of days if its a big dose) but that's not the same as the room spinning...I am not sure on what prophylactic measures can be taken to lessen nausea or vertigo. Maybe promethazine or dramamine? I'm leery of mixing anything with a flood dose of iboga, save for benzos on certain occasions, and these usually in small amounts to help people through anxiety. Anyways, thought I'd chime in...

PS> cool avatar Tia!
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 22, 2010, 05:29:21 PM
I know my puking was definitely ataxia related-- move your head, you puke.  I don't think any of the common anti-nauseants will really fix that problem.  You may also be right too-- the body has to get rid of the toxins.   God did I ever sweat all over-- and I think it was coming out that way too.  I have to say that while the puking of bile was definitely NOT pleasant.  Once I'd settled back down and quit moving my head around-- I was fine and could get back to the visions and my thoughts. 
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: koko on July 22, 2010, 05:47:01 PM
hey yall,river ,i am still not convinced that ibogaine hits all the receptor sites necessary for painless detox,so ,i still contend that switch over to opis would help-koko
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 23, 2010, 09:49:35 AM
Oh I agree-- NO WAY I'd ever do another flood coming off kratom-- I'd switch over to oxys or lortabs---- something other than kratom.  Ibogaine just didn't hit enough of those receptors-- and LOL I was on TONS of UEI.  I figured what the heck I was on my last week before detox- go wild.  DUMB...really dumb.....
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: koko on July 23, 2010, 11:06:16 AM
river,i can relate,back when i was dabbling with the online pharmacies and on 30 -10mg lortab and 8 soma a day,i went whole hog til i went to ibogaine associates.each time ive regressed,my intake has been lower,to the last time-which you were a witness to,the titrating helped SO much.now,i want to do a flood,just want the experience again,but with a qualified sitter,there are so many,r-want to be my first?-koko
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: riverhaven on July 23, 2010, 04:17:52 PM
I definitely count as a "qualified" sitter as in you will NOT die on me LOL.... but I've come to see that you probably know more than I do about dosing and when to do it-- perhaps together we could figure it all out as this isn't a full flood for someone coming off major league drugs.  You've done most of the hard work yourself.  Additionally-- I would like to have an easy one to start.  Poor Sassy isn't sure how far she wants to go with dosing and sitting with her will be nerve wracking to say the least.  Lemme know.  As I said I am heading back accross the country from dropping my daughter off at UCLA in mid Sept and have to be back to FL by 10/9 for a 10/10/10 wedding ( how cute huh??)...  no it's not my wedding.  I doubt Mr. Vanilla would ever marry his addictive gf here....
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: sassyfras on July 24, 2010, 06:59:55 PM
I think that would be a fantastic experience for both of you! Haha, "poor Sassy" is about right~~~I've been going through a bit of a confidence crisis re my microdosing Iboga goes. I did so well the first time I did it, right up until I ran out root bark. Then, when I started up again 10 days ago, I was using the tincture for the first 3 days and I felt NOTHING from that & my tolerance went UP, not good at all. Since then I've been using the root bark from Cameroon (Maya Ethnos) at 500mg per day. Tolerance was still not budging, so this morning I took a full gram. This rb is definitely active and I had a bit of the ear buzzing and some perceptual changes for some 3 - 4 hours. My tolerance finally seems to be going down now, on day 10, so we'll see. At least I won't be running out of rb this time. I still have 20mg rb from Maya Ethnos and another 30mg from Cerberus as well as 1 gram TA & of course the still mostly full vial of tincture.

I've been wondering if it might be a better idea for me to switch from kratom as my back up doc to poppy pods? I just get this sense that Iboga & kratom don't play together that well...maybe that's what's been messing with my tolerance. Seems quite a few people used pods to good effect & didn't have too many problems going from them to Iboga. What do y'all think about that idea? I wonder if it would be cheaper too, that darn kratom is SO bloody expensive! If anyone here could recommend a good website for pods( & one that will ship across the border)please PM me, I would appreciate that so much!
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: GratefulDad on July 24, 2010, 07:06:00 PM
I was on pods, and used iboga to get off of them.  I could dose once daily on pods, and I was fine.  They allowed me to stay regular, sleep normal, and were probably the most agreeable opiate I used.  They are around a dollar a pod, too.  I used between 3-6 usually, but did maybe 10 at one point to get really high.  If you have to use opiates, I do think poppies were pretty manageable.  I am not sure of a vendor outside of the US, though..
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Eon T McKnight on July 24, 2010, 07:22:06 PM
You know that the active alkaloids in kratom are both tryptamines, like DMT, LSD and psilocybin, right?  While they do bind to opiate receptors, heaven only knows what else they do.  Maybe that is why kratom & ibo don't mix too well.

Back in the Viet Nam era, when real opium was common, I found it to be more interesting mentally (opium dreams) than morphine, heroin or synthetics.  I never used it for pain management, so I can't speak to that.

I tried kratom a few times and didn't like it.  Pods are probably a better bet.

~et
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: koko on July 24, 2010, 08:06:37 PM
agreed,then you can use ibogaine like i did,real small doses over a week,maybe,just maybe-koko
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: Calaquendi on July 25, 2010, 01:35:39 PM
Good post Eon...I often wonder about kratom and iboga. I knew kratom was an indole and that always fascinated me, how and why it bound up those opiate receptors. It seems from posts here that kratom is very tricky to come off of, even with iboga. You make good points about the chemistry - I'd like to see more research on this.
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: roy d on July 25, 2010, 04:55:39 PM

Hi People,

Kartom goes to the Kappa and Mu recepter, maybe that has something to do with it.

  Roy
 
Title: Re: Microdosing fun ..
Post by: sassyfras on July 25, 2010, 04:57:09 PM
Exactly, Eon...kratom is a very complicated med! I think that most people underestimate kratom's power & think of it as pretty harmless, which it generally is IF people stay with the plain leaf & stay far away from any of the extracts. Those extracts can very quickly turn into the worst addiction possible. UEI (ultra enhanced Indonesian) will cause a persons tolerance to skyrocket after only a very few doses, and the pages in our other forum are full of UEI detox nightmares. When River was at Sara's house, Sara was surprised by the amount of Iboga it was taking to keep her even just partially out of withdrawal, so her flood experience was not as successful as most. I think the kratom possibly had a role in how poorly my microdosing went this time, too.