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Messages - mycotheologist

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Yeah, I think you have the right idea. Best to use an excess of vinegar to ensure you neutralize all the alkaloids. When you neutralize the excess acid with ammonia, ammonium acetate will be formed but after filtering out the precipitated alkaloids, quick water wash will get rid of the NH4COO. Theres no need to use heat at all with this method.

I'm guessing its better to convert your isolated alkaloids back into salts to increase their shelf life (since salts are more stable than the free base form).

General Discussion / Re: Does iboga interact with antidepressants?
« on: November 30, 2012, 01:10:38 AM »
Sorry to hear that DR Pockets (the part about seeing depressed, lonely and angry). Do you do kambo? Supposedly, it helps with depression. What about ayahuasca? Also, you should know that the elevated levels of serotonin are not the sole (and probably not even the most significant) reason behind how SSRIs alleviate depression. SSRIs cause neurotrophic (long term, caused by feeding the brain various neurotransmitters) changes that result in increased levels of brain derived neurotrophic factor in the brain. This is believed to be the main reason why SSRIs work and its the commonly accepted theory on why they take weeks to start working. There are other ways to increase BDNF levels. Exercise is one of them but thats a long term process. There is this newly discovered class of flavones that show serious promise and some believe may some day replace all existing antidepressant and anxiolytic drugs (the pharmaceutical industries with a vested interest in keeping people addicted to SSRIs and benzos will try to ensure these drugs never pass the required clinical testing so they may never hit the shelves but that doesn't stop us from using them). One of them that shows very promising results is called 7-8-dihydroxyflavone. Heres an article about it:
we could get together and do a group buy and order some from a chemical supplier. Unlike SSRIs, this stuff works instantly and unlike SSRIs, TCAs, benzos and the other antidepressants and anxiolytics commonly used today, this substance actually protects the brain and is good for you. Flavones are known to be potent antioxidants but they have various other health benefits.

Eboka Preparations & Extractions / Re: Soxhlet extraction with acetone
« on: November 28, 2012, 07:57:48 PM »
Nice!! I have a bit of a survivalist mentality so I'm a big fan of MacGyvering things. I MacGyvered a distillation apparatus once and it actually worked. Right now I'm trying to come up with a ghetto apparatus for bubbling gases. The apparatus I use consists of an RB flask, a gas outlet adaptor, an addition funnel and a tube. The addition funnel seems to be the trickiest part to get around. I could plug a wine bottle with a cork with tube through it but the tricky part is how do I add the second reactant to it. For example, if I wanna make ammonia, I add some ammonium sulphate to the wine bottle and put the cork in. Now I just need a way to add some NaOH solution to it. Have to have a bit of control over the addition speed too cuz if I added it all at once, the bottle might explode.

Another apparatus I improvised, hobo style was a reflux apparatus. I just inverted the lid of a cooking pot and put ice in the inverted lid lol.

I watched Chris Jenks interview and he said for every 2kg of RB, he used 4.5mL of water and 1.5L of vinegar or something like that and they're the proportions I went by. I started reading his extraction manual though and he says something different. He says for every kg of RB, to use 1.5L of vinegar. Also, I can't find any mention of how much water to use in the manual. I assume you have to add water because when I added the 7mL of vinegar and 25mL of water (I can't remember the exact volumes but it was something like that), I could barely even wet all the powder so I ended up adding a bit more water. If I only added 7mL of vinegar, it woulda just got absorbed by the powder.

I read that ibogaine HCl has a shelf life of about 3 years. The freebase alkaloid will be lower than that. I did a whole class on pharmaceutical formulation in college so I know a thing or do about this so I'll write a basic guide on increasing shelf life. Degradation doesn't just magically happen for no reason, its things in the environment that causes it to happen. Firstly, acidity accelerates degradation and one major way acidity is introduced by the environment is carbon dioxide. When CO2 dissolves in water, it forms carbonic acid. The obvious way to protect against this is to keep the sample dry. Its very easy to keep things dry, just make a little tissue pouch of calcium chloride and keep it in the bag with extract. Otherwise just get one of those silica bags that they put in shoes and stuff.

Another major cause of degradation is free radical attack. An obvious way to prevent this is to add an antioxidant. In some pharmaceutcal preparations in which the active compound is susceptible to free radical attack, they add vitamin C. Being a vitamin thats required by the body in large quantities, its an excellent choice for an antioxidant.

Oxidation is another major cause. My knowledge is a little rusty, I can't remember how to prevent this. I think it might actually occur via a free radical mechanism, so if thats the case then vitamin c would work. Vitamin C is ascorbic acid. If dilute vinegar is strong enough to react with the iboga alkaloids, I bet ascorbic acid is too so you could convert your iboga alkaloids into ascorbate salts. Never heard of ibogaine ascorbate before. I'll do some research later and update the thread.

Although this may sound like jibberish to someone with no chemistry background, I'll try explain a bit of the theory behind why compounds degrade, using ibogaine as an example.

Heres ibogaine:

In organic chemistry, to get an idea of how a compound will react, you look for any reactive functional groups on it. Aromatic rings are relatively stable (so the hexagon won't react easily) and alkyl chains are pretty stable (so that darker, square looking thing sticking out of the right of the molecule won't react easy). Heteroatoms (atoms that aren't carbon) are usually more reactive. On the left hand side of the molecule, theres a methoxy group, and they are susceptible to various types of reactions. For example, acid catalysed demethylations can occur. If that happened, the methoxy group (-O-) would turn into a hydroxy group (-OH), if it the acid was HCl, then a chlorine atom migth even be attached to it. In this case, we're safe because vinegar is nowhere near strong enough acid to do that.  They can also undergo oxidations but I can't really remember how that works.

Alkyl groups are usually stable but that depends on what they are attached to. Look at the 7 membered ring on the right, theres one carbon attached to the pyrrole ring and the carbon next to it is attached to a nitrogen atom. The pyrrole ring is electron withdrawing so the carbon next to it is not that stable. Similarly, the carbon attached to the nitrogen atom is not that stable. I can't remember the specifics on how these carbons can be attacked, I need to do a bit of revision.

Finally, the amino groups themselves are targets for degradation. I don't know anything about how they contribute to degradation though so I'll leave it at that. I'll update the thread when I know more.

Eboka Preparations & Extractions / Degradation of iboga alkaloids
« on: November 28, 2012, 05:47:50 PM »
I did an extraction on 30g RB myself and ended up with only 250mg which is a terrible yield, and I didn't even bother to filter the product because it was clogging up the filter and I didn't want to lose my product on the coffee filters. For some kind of filtrations, you really need to do a vacuum filtration with a Hirsch funnel. I have the apparatus for that but no vacuum source. I'm going to convert a bicycle pump into a vacuum pump soon enough, it looks pretty easy to do that.

After researching it, it seems, like gratefuldad said, iboga alkaloids are susceptible to degradation. After I added the vinegar and water and extracted the plant mass, I boiled some of the liquid off which is one of the worst things I could of possibly done because both heat and acidity accelerate degradation. Also, instead of filtering the precipitated freebase alkaloids, I let it settle to the bottom of the beaker, siphoned off the liquid at the top then evaporated the rest. Another big mistake because freebase alkaloids are even more fragile than the salts. I'm worried now that my product will be contaminated with degradation products. Some of those degradation products might be active so God knows what effects they might have.

Has anyone here done an extraction as disasterious as my one and tested the product? If so, did it have any adverse side effects?

Eboka Preparations & Extractions / Soxhlet extraction with acetone
« on: November 26, 2012, 07:14:07 PM »
Anyone here tried a Soxhlet extractor for iboga extractions? The solvent I'd use is acetone because the freebase alkaloids are soluble in it, it has a low boiling and its aprotic (which means its less likely to react with the alkaloids). I don't have a soxhlet extractor so I can't test this out yet.

Eboka Preparations & Extractions / Re: Food Safe Purification Questions
« on: November 26, 2012, 05:04:20 PM »
You don't need to know the concentration of the ammonia, just add an excess of ammonia. It will evaporate anyway. To test the purity of your ammonia, evaporate a bit of it and see if there is any residue left over. It there is residue, don't use it. If there isn't, then I'd say its fine because any volatile impurities in there will evaporate and therefore, won't be present in your product. BTW there are plenty of food grade acids to be had. In my country, you can get pure citric acid in the pharmacies. I'm not sure what solubility properties the citrate salts will have though so it might be best to stick to the tried and true methods.

You talk about limonene and vinegar like they are interchangeable but thats not the case in this situation. Vinegar is an acid, limonene isn't. I'm guessing limonene is just used as a solvent. Vinegar converts ibogaine and the other iboga alkaloids to their acetate salts (because vinegar is just a solution of acetic acid). The extraction method that Chris Jenks invented is just an acid/base extraction (using vinegar as the acid and ammonia as the base). You can't wash with vinegar because vinegar will convert the alkoids into salts. What you wash with depends on whether the alkaloids are in their freebase form, or their salt form. In the Chris Jenks method, you first convert the iboga alkaloids to their acetate salts by adding the vinegar. Then you convert them back into their freebase form by adding the ammonia. So to wash your product then, you wanna use a polar solvent (one that isn't acidic enough to react with the alkaloids though so you can't use vinegar) because freebase alkaloids are non polar, therefore they won't dissolve in polar solvents like water. Things aren't always so simple in chemistry though, methanol and ethanol are relatively polar solvents but freebase ibogaine happens to be fairly soluble in them, therefore you can't wash the product with alcohols. I'd personally just use cold water.

Also, to dry your product, I recommend using a vacuum desiccator, rather than using heat. They're dead simple to make. Just will a bowl with calcium chloride (they sell it in hardware stores), then place your product on some tin foil or something and place the tin foil on top of the pile of calcium chloride, then seal the bowl with cling film. Thats a hobos vacuum desiccator lol. I'll be happy to answer any chemistry related questions you have because I'm finally getting to do something productive with my chemistry knowledge. Plus, you've helped me like mad by answering my questions and providing info so I'll return the favour. 

EDIT: BTW, for cleaning solvents and reagents, activated charcoal is your friend. Don't attempt to clean your product with it because it will absorb your product but its very good for absorbing impurities in your solvents (i.e. hardware store acetone) and reagents (i.e. household ammonia).

Eboka Preparations & Extractions / Re: NH3 purification questions???
« on: November 26, 2012, 05:00:43 PM »
I had some homemade NH3 solution lying around in the shed, I wasn't expecting it to be very concentrated but I gave it a smell and it burned my throat so it was pretty concentrated. This is the way to go in my opinion. You don't know what kind of contaminants might be in hardware store ammonia. However, with ammonia at least you can get an idea by doing an evaporation test.

You want to dissolve the freebase extract in the acetone, because freebases are soluble in non-polar solvents.  You want to complete this step over night, because iboga alkaloids degrade very fast when in solution.  Leaving it in solution for days or longer will degrade your alkaloids, so don't wait, finish it.  Also, the alkaloids are not very stable in freebase form, so once you begin the extraction, you should complete it as quickly as possible, to reduce any possible degradation. 

Are you sure about this (that iboga alkaloids degrade easily in solution)? Can you provide a reference for that? If this is the case, then heating of the aqueous solution (when the solvent is water, especially acidic or alkaline water) should be avoided at all costs because degradation of compounds is generally proportional to the temperature of the solvent.  Heating the acetone should be safe since its an aprotic solvent therefore it won't contribute to degradation of the alkaloids. Plus, its boiling point is only around 60C. I'm worried now that I destroyed most of the alkaloids in my solution because I lightly boiled the acidified solution for about an hour in order to evaporate some of it and I also let it sit overnight. If I'm not mistaken, acids greatly contribute to the degradation of alkaloids.

BTW, did you study chem in college? You sound like you know your shit. I'm a chem major myself.

Eboka Preparations & Extractions / Re: 50g. iboga extraction (part 1)
« on: November 26, 2012, 04:26:04 PM »
I did an extraction on 30g of RB and ended up with 250mg of extract, and I haven't even done the acetone step yet. Terrible yield. I'm thinking I may not have used enough vinegar because after adding it, I could no longer smell the acetic acid. I definitely added enough ammonia because I could still smell it afterwards.

Eboka Talk / Re: Is it safe to work your way up to a flood alone?
« on: November 05, 2012, 03:49:56 AM »
GratefulDad: Thanks, thats exactly what I needed to know. It'll be a long time before I try a flood and won't do it alone but I want to experiment with raising my dosage in small increments without ending up in an intense psychedelic state that I can't manage.

KIAP: I'll keep that in mind. I did low dose iboga about 6 hours after kambo for 3 days and I noticed the iboga RB made me very euphoric and relaxed. Today I didn't do any kambo and there are less of those positive effects.

General Discussion / Re: Tracers?
« on: November 05, 2012, 03:32:40 AM »
I've been taking low doses of iboga for the past few days. Thats a pretty insane experience you had. Was the psychosis gone by the next day or did it linger for a while afterwards?

Eboka Talk / Is it safe to work your way up to a flood alone?
« on: November 04, 2012, 10:59:22 AM »
I've read enough posts on this forum to shiver at the thought of doing my first flood alone. I've been microdosing with RB every day and gradually increasing my doses and I'm wondering if one can gain experience and get a feel for iboga and therefore, make themselves better able to handle a flood like this. So far its just making me euphoric, energetic and giving me mild visuals. Is there a thin threshold between microdosing and psychedelic doses? Meaning could taking just an extra gram make the experience unmanagable?

General Discussion / Tracers?
« on: November 04, 2012, 10:53:34 AM »
For the past few days, when I move my arm or any other object past my field of vision, its followed by a slow motion ghost arm. Its very trippy. It kept me entertained for about 2 hours last night. Is this what people refer to as "tracers"?

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