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Messages - GratefulDad

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Ibogaine has caused misery.. William S. Burroughs hated it!  Some have complained of PTSD after an uncomfortable iboga experience.  It has killed people.  Cigarettes and alcohol kill people every day.  And it's not the substance that is destructive, it's the way it's used.  Heroin does pretty much the same thing as oxycontin, yet plenty of people need oxycontin to deal with their pain.  

It's stated all over the place and ingrained in the youth of today that drugs are bad, same as ibogaine has loads of warnings, but that doesn't stop people from misusing it.  I have spoken with experienced ibogaine users, who know of a shaman who used iboga daiily and ayahuasca, in a shamanic context, and he has a pronounced tremor, like early stages of Parkinson's disease, he has almost no short term memory.  Guess maybe we should ban iboga, cause he misused it and now suffers the consequences, right?

I can honestly smoke as much crack as I want, then walk away from it for as long as I want, so why should I not be able to use it?  It doesn't cause me problems, but it must for you.  So why should I be punished for your problem?

Gee, Lou can't control her cocaine problem so no one should use it.  Lou can't control her opiate problem, so Frank with a broken back shouldn't have pain relief.  You are demonizing drugs in which you think are devastating, but for everyone who can't control themselves, I can show you someone who can.  

Selling heroin or crack to people does not cause devastation.  What someone chooses to do with it, might.  

I have friends who snort coke at parties, have a great time, and go on living their lives with out problems.  I know people who enjoy heroin once in awhile.  I know people who drink poppy pod tea, which has morphine, codeine, and other alkaloids, that are just as effective as heroin.  They don't have a problem.  Should they be prevented from using anything because some other person has a problem?  

I imagine you think that it is right to limit what I may do, because you cannot do it successfully.  Again it's no different than ANYTHING else.  It is a substance.  People drive cars and die in traffic accidents by the second.  It is deadly!  Anytime you get in the car you have way more chance of dying, than using a bag of heroin.  Look at statistics!  Maybe we should outlaw cars?

If you look at statistics, the number of people who cannot control their drug intake are the minority.  So because a few bad apples can't use a drug without ruining their lives, everyone has to suffer.  That is utter bullshit.  A drug is a drug is a drug.  Knowing the effects and learning how they work for you is your own responsibility.

I think this is probably the biggest problem with the society of today, everyone seeks to blame everything and anything else, other than themselves and the poor choices they make.  That's why we have so many people on welfare, asking for handouts because they fucked up their life and blame whatever else they can, besides themselves.  People are convinced addiction is a disease and they have no control, well I can tell you it's way fuckin hard to beat an addiction, but the power lies within.  As soon as people stop telling themselves they have no control, they begin to get control.  You have managed to get to a point in your life where you are seeking your control back, but you are giving drugs too much power.  A drug dealer can offer a product, but it's up to you to choose whether to use it, and how to use it.  THAT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY!!!

Go ahead and blame all the drug dealers for turning you into a junky, but I bet they didn't force you to take anything.  I can tell you how people can destroy there lives with anything you can imagine in the world, and drugs are no special case.  A drug is a drug, and they should be treated equally.  You can't have it both ways.  This drug is okay, but that one isn't because someone can't handle it.  Some people can't handle just about anything you can imagine, but that doesn't mean I should be restricted because of their problem.

Anyways, I think I have made my point..  I am going to leave my arguments as they stand, and I sense this heading into a negative direction.  I am obviously angering you, since you are making sarcastic comments about my opinions and ideas, calling me charming (sarcastically) because I believe in freedom and personal responsibilities, both of which I teach my children.

I do know that my children will be taking personal responsibility for their actions, no matter who the hell offers them anything, as that is what being a parent is about.  Teaching your children the truth and ways to deal with life in healthy ways.  

The reason ibogaine is illegal now, is because the guy who brought it to the masses was involved with LSD and a heroin addict.  People think, well someone died from ibogaine, it has hallucinogenic effects, it is harmful, and the junkies that want it should rot in hell since the drugs are illegal and they shouldn't use them.  Well, I say fuck those people, just because some idiot kills themselves with anything, doesn't mean I will, or should be prevented from using something that might help me, because someone else deems it dangerous or destructive.



Words: Robert Hunter; music: Jerry Garcia

    Saw a bird with a tear in his eye
    Walking to New Orleans my oh my
    Hey, now, Bird, wouldn't you rather die
    Than walk this world when you're born to fly?

    If I was the sun, I'd look for shade
    If I was a bed, I would stay unmade
    If I was a river I'd run uphill
    If you call me you know I will
    If you call me you know I will

    Ooo, freedom
    Ooo, liberty
    Ooo, leave me alone
    To find my own way home
    To find my own way home

    Say what I mean and I don't give a damn
    I do believe and I am who I am
    Hey now Mama come and take my hand
    Whole lotta shakin' all over this land

    If I was an eagle I'd dress like a duck
    Crawl like a lizard and honk like a truck
    If I get a notion I'll climb this tree
    or chop it down and you can't stop me
    Chop it down and you can't stop me

    Ooo, freedom
    Ooo, liberty
    Ooo, leave me alone
    To find my own way home
    To find my own way home

    Went to the well but the water was dry
    Dipped my bucket in the clear blue sky
    Looked in the bottom and what did I see?
    The whole damned world looking back at me

    If I was a bottle I'd spill for love
    Sake of mercy I'd kill for love
    If I was a liar I'd lie for love
    Sake of my baby I'd die for love
    Sake of my baby I'd die for love

    Ooo, freedom
    Ooo, liberty
    Ooo, leave me alone
    To find my own way home
    To find my own way home
    I'm gonna find my own way home

EDIT:  BTW, someone might choose to remain hidden so they cannot be tracked as to how much they are visiting certain forums, or don't choose to let others know what they are doing.  Privacy is a nice option..

Sorry I didn't answer your question directly, but I think my last answer speaks for itself.

The question was "People who sell Hard Drugs in my opinion have no Morals, just because they give out Freebies now and then doesnt make them nice people, where are the morals, tell me??  If u want to reply to me again, dont change the subject, answer this question, where are the morals in Dealing in Crack and Heroin, maybe u think its morally ok do you?"

I specifically knew plenty of people who dealt, to support themselves and their habits.  Some would short you, rip you off, give you cut crap, etc.  Some however, would call me when they got a deal, would tell me how good it was, would give me a better deal than what was on the street.  They wouldn't deal in front of my kids, wouldn't allow me to go drive off after getting high, cause they didn't want my kids in jeopardy.  They also wouldn't turn on new people, and would often tell people interested how bad they were addicted and would turn them away.  These people had definite morals, and cared, but they often were addicts too.  You have given a stereotypical view of drug dealers, but remember they are people, and again, there is good and bad in all people.  Who you choose to deal with is YOUR choice..

I think selling drugs is morally okay.  I think that anyone who produces a product, regardless of it's safety for the masses, should be paid for their efforts and risks.  I don't care if it's cannabis or methamphetamine.  Some cannabis growers care so much, they grow only organic, use no inorganic pesticides, and harvest, trim, and cure it so the end product is of utmost quality.  I know meth cooks who will not dare put out anything but clear shards of meth.  They care definitely for the quality of their products.  I also know cannabis growers who grow huge yields of hydroponic pot, who don't trim well, don't flush properly, and don't cure properly, just so they can sell it and make money.  I know of meth cooks who will sell peanut butter meth (dirty shit with nasty byproducts in it).  It's not the drug they are dealing, but the person's intent that makes the difference..

Ibogaine can kill you, and anyone selling it is in fact a drug dealer..  Look at the host of complaints about treatment providers.  Lots of people feel they weren't treated properly, were ripped off, and some have died.  How is that any different than a drug dealer who sold you heroin and had the same effect?  A drug is a drug, and intent is what matters.  Knowledgeable use of drugs can be profound for the user, and so education is what is needed more than regulation, IMHO..

I definitely can justify drug use.  I went to a vendor online to purchase poppy pods, a plant that is fairly simple to grow and can provide me with total pain relief.  If I couldn't buy them, I'd probably grow them myself.  It is addictive, but do I hold the person selling pods responsible for my use?  Hell no!  I am the one making a choice to use a drug, and I choose where I purchase it.  Most heroin dealers I knew, even the grubby ones, wouldn't try and turn on people unfamiliar with it.  Not to say it doesn't happen, but you obviously have dealt with some ruthless fucks, that probably would do the same thing with anything they are involved with.  It's called being selfish and greedy, which too, are addictions.  

I don't care if it's some coca leaves in tea or a crack rock, it's the same drug.  Many people use coca tea the same as caffeine, should we hold coca-cola responsible for all the caffeine addicts of the world?  How about the coffee makers and growers?  Perhaps we should lock up all the no doze dealers of the world, since they are obviously selling an addictive drug that could kill or cause problems.  

I am simply stating, just because you are unable to use a drug successfully, without causing you pain, doesn't mean that joe blow on the corner can't and should be punished for yours or my shortcomings.  You can blame anyone one you choose, but in the end, it came down to your choice of what to buy, who to buy it from, and how and why you use it.  That blame lies with you, and your choice.  The consequences of your lack of self control should not dictate what anyone else does.  

We will never be able to eradicate drug use, because people obviously want them.  Where there is a will, there is a way, as there should be.  Seeking to control others choices because of your own short comings is prejudiced, and blaming the actions of some drug dealers for your lack of self control does no good for anyone.  If we legalized drugs we could use taxes and profits to fund addiction treatments and proper drug education.  

If you think opiates are so evil, tell that to the cancer patient just hanging on or the guy with a broken back who needs these things to live a quality life free of debilitating pain. Regulation would be easier to implement, if things were legal.  Most kids can get heroin or cocaine way easier than alcohol, so why not regulate drugs the same way they do with alcohol and cigarettes?  

When does it become the responsibility of the user?  I could drink 10 gallons of water and die, but you aren't gonna hold the bottler accountable for my misuse of their product, are you?  I mean I just have problem with the logic.  We've been making harsher penalties, and throwing more and more people in jail every day, and our jail populations continue to rise.  Families are ripped apart, killers and rapists get less time, all because of the money that cops can attain with the current drug policy.  The whole policy needs to be changed, and if you look at other models, in countries that allow possession of drugs for personal use, they have lower incarceration rates, and less overall drug use.  Why do you suppose that is?  

We can debate for days on this, but all of it falls right back to the single point, two simple words, PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.  

If someone offers my children drugs, do I think they should be in jail?  Nope, I don't, as I have taught my children the truth about drugs.  I don't want anyone offering my kids drugs, but I also don't believe they should go to jail.  It is my responsibility as a parent to teach my kids the truth and to help them cope with daily problems in a healthy way.  Just because there are millions of parents who don't, doesn't mean that I should be restricted.  People of today forget to take responsibility for their choices, they get out of control, then seek to blame the thing that they got out of control with.  

I can spend way too much time on the internet, neglect my family and other personal responsibilities, so maybe we should limit the amount of internet everyone is allowed to use, or only allow it for those who have acquired special licenses?  Does that sound fair or practical?  

Addiction is a mental problem, and regardless if your drug of choice is women (sex), or heroin, an unhealthy balance in life is the problem, not sex or heroin.  That is what I truly believe.  Outlawing heroin and cocaine, and busting drug dealers with harsher penalties never stopped me from using, so why do you think it would stop anyone else?  

I just feel your anger is misdirected.  I feel if I fuck up my life, it's my fault, as no one held me down and made me take anything.  As for grading drugs, I know people who have been so addicted to weed (mentally pretty much) that they can't afford to pay their bills and have had problems.  I don't think that is any different than a heroin addict or a cocaine addict or a meth addict, or a TV addict, or a food addict, etc.  

It's not the object that causes the addiction, but rather the motivations/genes/problems of the person using the tool.  If you use heroin to cope, and get out of control, then that is YOUR fault.  Plenty of people use opiates daily, and benzos, and whatever, and they function just fine.

I don't imagine I can convince you, but maybe after you take iboga, free your mind and body of addiction, you'll learn that you had the power to do so all along, and you'll stop blaming drug dealers for your addiction.  

That's like me asking for a knife, then getting pissed at you for selling me one, cause I cut off my finger.  Whether it was an accident or not, it's not the knife sellers fault if I hurt myself.  Now one knife seller might give instructions on how to use it properly, install safety precautions, give me detailed instructions on how to use it, etc.  He would probably be the one I chose to buy my knife off of.  However you can go into millions of markets in the world, and buy a knife with no instructions, then go home and chop off your finger.  Now who's fault is that?  Is it yours for not making a proper educated choice?  Is it the knife company who made it?  Is it the market who sold it to you?  

Please, I know a lot of the questions I've asked might seem rhetorical, but go ahead and answer them anyways, I would love to see your answers, as I think you might open your mind to some of my logic..

EDIT: Also, I want you to know, you have not touched a nerve, or angered me in any way.  I truly enjoy the debate, and hope that you don't take any offense at my opinions.  They are my opinions and I am enjoying our debate, so please, this is all said with love and care in mind!  

Peace sister!

Introductions / Re: you were recomended to me
« on: March 17, 2010, 05:11:58 PM »
Welcome aboard.  What I would say, is if you put as much effort into finding iboga and succeeding in treatment as you do in maintaining your habit, you'll likely do very well.  I don't know of a lot of suppliers, however my first treatment was with Sara Glatt, and she is involved with ibogaworld so I would suggest checking there for extracts or HCl.  Maybe take a small portion of the money you use to maintain, and put some aside.  Each day, you can be trying to work down the amount of opiates you need, while still saving money for iboga treatment.  I know I had to beg and borrow to get high, so i did the same to gather what I needed for iboga.  

I have treated myself twice and went to Sara once.  It did work for me, two out of three times, as long as I had enough iboga and was willing to go through a couple weeks feeling not so hot.  Iboga did remove the cravings and probably 90% of the withdrawal, so it's easier than any other way I have tried, although I had 7 clinical detoxes, plus long term methadone maintenance, my first go.  I tried everything I could, and learned a lot from it all, but iboga made it so much more physically and mentally easier, that I will continue to stand by it's efficacy, eternally..

General Discussion / Re: LSD, Kykeon and Manna
« on: March 17, 2010, 02:53:08 PM »
I love LSD, and I haven't went more than maybe 3 months in the last 17 years, without eating some.  LSD has helped form who I am today, and definitely has shown me a greater purpose in life.  I value every experience I have ever had on LSD, and I have been very, very far.  LSD is probably my favorite psychedelic, but it requires a good understanding and working knowledge of how it works with your psyche to reap the full benefits (as does any psychedelic).  I have learned this by having extensive experience with LSD, and I enjoy sharing my feelings about it with others!  Thanks for this thread!

That's where I disagree.  I don't choose to demonize any drug.  See, plenty of folks can go out on the weekend, drink a few drinks, snort a little coke, eat a percocet, smoke a joint, whatever, and they don't turn into miserable addicts scrounging for every penny, just to get their daily fix.  Punishing these people for addicts behavior is exactly what prohibition does.  Not every drug dealer believes that they are causing misery and pain, and many of them are not.  Many are providing a quality product that makes lots of people happy and able to cope with life.  You say "to may to"  , I say "to MAH to".  

The one causing themselves misery and pain, by being a non-functioning addict in need of desperate help, is the person who has let their habit take control.  If you look at statistics, the majority of people do not have these problems.  The number of people prone to addiction increases steadily with the population.  This would indicate a small portion of people will naturally become addicted.  Genetics plays a big role in whether someone will become an addict, or an occasional drug user.  

Now stop and think about all the people addicted to the internet, the TV, driving their cars, etc.  All of these things can cause trouble for someone addicted, but should their lack of balance and moderation dictate what the fuck I can do?  My answer is an emphatic NO!!  

However, I understand people who do not want to take personal responsibility, and want to place the blame other than where I believe it lies directly.  That is okay, and just not my perception.  I value hearing others views, as it helps me to broaden my own, however I feel pretty adamant about ending prohibition, as I hold freedom more dear than most anything else..

EDIT:  I am sorry for your unfortunate experience with drug dealers you have known, but mine used to go always for the best quality, and price.  They would pass them on to me for a price more reasonable than street prices.  Many of them were also regular users, so they didn't get garbage, they tested it themselves, and would give you an honest, experienced evaluation.  There are a shit load of drug dealers who have standards, and are honest.  Hell, I know a whole bunch of drug dealers, who sell all kinds of drugs, and many of them are people I consider my very best friends.  

I choose not to spend a lot of time around addictive drugs, but saying that every drug dealer who sells something that is addictive is horrible (and deserves jail time), is no better than being a racist or sexist, etc.  People are people, and in any category, you will find good and bad, the decision lies with you, in who you choose to associate yourself with.  Making poor choices gives no one the right to blame others involved, unless force comes in to play, and I don't know many drug dealers that force people to buy their shit, since it's usually pretty easy to sell on it's own.

Also, most of the drug dealers I knew wouldn't dare offer drugs to children and would make sure they didn't deal in front of them.  They were people, just like any other, with bills to pay, a habit, often times, and desires, just like the rest of us.  Some are unscrupulous money hungry predators, but I see them no different than corporations after the almighty dollar.  Legalization would allow for better regulation..

I think all drugs should be legal, and people responsible for their actions regardless of the drug they choose to take.  I believe an addict has all the responsibility that anyone else has, which is to not rob, steal, or kill, regardless of what substance they've ingested.  Ingesting a substance doesn't give anyone the right to harm/hurt others, so charge them for the crimes against others.  Deciding what someone can/should ingest should be up to that person.  Addicts need to take as much responsibility as anyone else. 

I do agree that proper, factual drug data should be taught in schools and to children at an early age, rather than pumping children full of propaganda which just lessens the believability of those in charge.  If you lie to people all the time, they won't believe shit you say, so people need to stop playing the blame game and start taking responsibility for themselves.  Drug dealers never forced you to spend your money on drugs.  They are providing a service, just like a hooker, or a stripper.  One's morals should dictate what THEY do, not what OTHERS do.

BTW, I had some pretty good dealers when I used heroin.  They'd give me deals, and give me free bags when I was real sick, with no money.  It was good customer service.  Some drug dealers don't give a shit about people, but some do.  Even if it's profit motivated, they still don't want to screw their clientele, and often like to look out for people who help provide their living.

I believe the addict should take full responsibility for the choices they make, as anyone should be held accountable for their actions..

Announcements, News & Events / Re: Camp Eboka
« on: March 17, 2010, 01:17:18 AM »
I personally have a close connection to LSD.  I regularly talk to Family, who are the main distributors of LSD.  Otto Snow's book is okay, but the newest remarkable updates to LSD synthesis come from Casey "Freeblood" Hardison, and can be found in The Entheogen Review.  It has to do with using a peptide coupler in synthesis to reduce the amount of time and steps to synthesize LSD in a high yielding formula.  I can find it and repost it here, if anyone really wants, but it probably deserves it's own thread..  Maybe check out peptide coupler synthesis for LSD, using PyBOP.

Announcements, News & Events / Re: Camp Eboka
« on: March 17, 2010, 12:00:06 AM »
I am sure it would..  Just need to isolate a high alkaloid strain of claviceps, and harvest it old fashioned style, since modern techniques strip the ergot from the grass.  There is some more detailed info in Uncle Fester's, Practical LSD Manufacture (doesn't sound all that practical to me, but hey..). 

Also, not sure what you meant about the partying all the time, but I often enhance my environment by growing things and/or picking up trash around my campsite, etc.

Eboka Journals / Re: Today is the day!
« on: March 16, 2010, 11:07:22 PM »
Thanks Nobu, also I've noticed, I do still get the goosebumps, but it just doesn't bug me much when I am stoned.  I also don't think I've ever had such meaningful, and powerful trips, before (my first experience with) iboga, although I have always been pretty in tune.  After iboga, though, even my LSD trips have shown me amazing things, and allowed the energy to flow through me properly to produce what might be referred to as a kundalini experience.  I'd hate to give up any of the wonderful tools in my arsenal, especially after kicking out the numbing factor of opiates.  Iboga allows me to appreciate everything more fully, even the pain, and it's exhilarating.

Announcements, News & Events / Re: Camp Eboka
« on: March 16, 2010, 11:03:13 PM »
I am gonna be in West Virginia July 8-11, most likely, but wouldn't mind a trip out west if it could be coordinated after Furthur Tour.  Also, what kinda things would we need to bring?  Maybe i can catch a ride with Cal?  Cal, get that car runnin well, and we can ride out! :)

Introductions / Re: Hello, ibogang. All my love, mik.
« on: March 16, 2010, 11:00:30 PM »
Welcome M, I think I know who you are from the list.  I am HH, so welcome aboard.  I also agree an Iboga chat would be fun.  Be nice to talk to you folks in real time!

I don't think giving drug dealers harsher penalties will do anything to stop drug use, but rather cause more violence.  Other than that, I totally understand where you are at, how you feel, and what you want from Iboga, and believe me, it can give that to you.  You aren't gonna feel wonderful for a few weeks, but it sure beats a lifetime of numbing your existence.  I have been on both sides of the equation and believe me, being addiction free is much more fulfilling, but still not all fun and games.  I am sure you can make it through, and you sound like you are at the point you want the change bad enough, that you are willing to stick to it and get out from under addiction, with the understanding that the path is hard, but well worth the rewards.  I am hoping for the best for you!

Well, there is loads to learn about, but I can tell you I did ibogaine for a morphine addiction 13 days ago, and I am feeling pretty much normal.  The trip isn't scary or terribly difficult for me, and I rather enjoy the ibogaine experience.  So I got a couple weeks of minor sniffles, some goosebumps and a little insomnia.  It's nothing compared to any other detox, clinical or not.  I never once felt that I wanted to jump out of my skin, or use, and I have no cravings or desires for opiates, even with 4.5 30mg morphine sulfate pills sitting right here.  I also did iboga back in 04 to kick methadone, and it kept me clean for 5 years until I injured myself and had to use pain killers again.  Even then it took a couple months before I was addicted again.  Anyways, you've come to the right place.  If you have any specific questions feel free to ask away.  There is loads of info on the net if you just want to read about different experiences.  Welcome to Eboka Forums!

Eboka Journals / Re: Today is the day!
« on: March 15, 2010, 07:17:17 PM »
Thing is, I don't have to quit weed.  I can if I want, and almost have before, but since I grow it, it's nice to smoke it and eat it.  I smoked for so long, that I quit just to be able to get high again, and I didn't get any withdrawal.  I was slightly irritable for a few days but nothing big. 

I think there are plenty of useful drugs, and I was only seeking to remove the withdrawal from opiates, so I could quit.  I didn't really have anything out of control in my life with the opiates, I just didn't want to need something to feel normal.  So I used iboga to quit.  I will use it again for cigarettes probably in a few months, if I haven't already kicked them by then.  I like psychedelics and don't have any desire to quit using them or cannabis, so I have achieved most of my goal.  Other than cigarettes, I am happy with where I am. 

Iboga is a learning tool, just like mushrooms, ayahuasca, LSD, or cactus.  They all have a place in my learning, so I will continue to enjoy them.  I did just fine for 5 years, and used relatively few drugs for much of that time, although I do trip pretty frequently.  Smoking cannabis is pretty much a daily thing, but I don't have to smoke to be okay.  I only got back on the opiates because I was injured.  I don't like any of the really addictive drugs like speed, coke, and opiates.  Benzos I have to just stay away from, because I enjoy them too much.

I am very confident I can use the drugs I choose without becoming obsessed, as I have grown up a whole lot, and I know the outcomes for nearly every drug I can do.  I enjoy traversing inner space, and feel there is still more to be unlocked.  Removing the opiates allows me to tune in so much more.

Thanks for your concern!

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