Author Topic: legal liability for sitting  (Read 4459 times)

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Offline ddraig

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legal liability for sitting
« on: August 28, 2013, 11:33:25 PM »
Hello,

If I were to hypothetically be a sitter for someone in a country where iboga/ibogaine is illegal (like the U.S.), where would I stand legally?

Please note, in this hypothetical situation, I would just be sitting, not providing, the person would have a separate provider they contacted that sent them the TA/ibogaine, and they would self administer. I would only be there to sit, along with a girlfriend say and at most help comfort/ease the journeyer or get help if needed. God forbid that anything happened, what would be the liability also? Would a liability waiver need to be created and signed? I think this would be a good idea.

Would love to get some feedback on this. PM if you prefer.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 11:39:44 PM by ddraig »

Offline JackTripper

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Re: legal liability for sitting
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2013, 04:56:57 AM »
what does this person plan on using Ibo for?
how old is this person?
what is his or her health condition ?
 have you ever sat for someone before  ?
 do you have any basic ER training if something goes wrong.
Have you screened the hypothetical person you are considering sitting for ?
If something goes wrong or it turns out to be a fatal situation because of lack of experience on you're part
then what?
Ibogaine is not a game or a cure all, as i am sure you know by now.
This is about you're life as much as his, if something happens on your watch you may carry the guilt
regardless of the legal status in any country ?

 & by all means i suggest his girl friend is no where near if you go forward with this.
Just my opinion .

We all have much more to learn on the subject.

 
 
The root does not work for you, you must work for the root.

Offline ddraig

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Re: legal liability for sitting
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2013, 10:40:04 AM »
>what does this person plan on using Ibo for?

dpd

>how old is this person?

presuming in his 20s, but need to find out

>what is his or her health condition ?

good, but need to verify.

> have you ever sat for someone before  ?

this will be first time

 >do you have any basic ER training if something goes wrong.

no. good point.

>Have you screened the hypothetical person you are considering sitting for ?

I requested ekg, but they dont have much money. They really should get check out I agree.

>If something goes wrong or it turns out to be a fatal situation because of lack of experience on you're part
then what?

This person is going to go through with it with our without me.
Ibogaine is not a game or a cure all, as i am sure you know by now.

>This is about you're life as much as his, if something happens on your watch you may carry the guilt
regardless of the legal status in any country ?

Very very true, need to consider this of course.

my first flood provider just asked me a few general health questions, his gf was a nurse (he told me) who also took my pulse a couple of times. No screening etc..., thats it.  I am eager to help others with this medicine, but definitely need to get some ER training and to encourage them to save for an ekg etc..

thanks for the feedback, gives me more to consider.



 
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 10:42:04 AM by ddraig »

Offline Alexandra Lost

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Re: legal liability for sitting
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2013, 01:34:28 PM »
This person is going to go through with it with our without me.Ibogaine is not a game or a cure all, as i am sure you know by now.[/I]

I would consider THIS to be a big red flag -- that this person is irresponsible enough to try to do this alone if you don't step up to the plate. It seems sort of passive-aggressive to me.
Yes, you need a sitter to flood safely but having a sitter doesn't mean you're going to be safe no matter what and it might lead to a false sense of security.

And the fact that you are worried enough to ask this question probably means you aren't comfortable with the situation. Listen to yourself.

Frankly, I'm a little uncomfortable with all these desperate teenagers suffering dp ( usually because of drug abuse ) that are begging for someone to reassure them that ibogaine will make it all better. I mean, I feel their pain but that shouldn't extend to enabling them to do something that will possibly make the situation worse.

Offline ddraig

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Re: legal liability for sitting
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2013, 04:43:29 PM »
This person is going to go through with it with our without me.Ibogaine is not a game or a cure all, as i am sure you know by now.[/I]

I would consider THIS to be a big red flag -- that this person is irresponsible enough to try to do this alone if you don't step up to the plate. It seems sort of passive-aggressive to me.
Yes, you need a sitter to flood safely but having a sitter doesn't mean you're going to be safe no matter what and it might lead to a false sense of security.

And the fact that you are worried enough to ask this question probably means you aren't comfortable with the situation. Listen to yourself.

Frankly, I'm a little uncomfortable with all these desperate teenagers suffering dp ( usually because of drug abuse ) that are begging for someone to reassure them that ibogaine will make it all better. I mean, I feel their pain but that shouldn't extend to enabling them to do something that will possibly make the situation worse.

I believe that they will have someone, like their girlfriend sit, rather than someone somewhat more knowledgeable, than do it alone. Thanks for the comments. You are right, iboga is serious medicine. Looking back, you could say that my provider in canada and I were wreckless, but I was so desperate, I didnt care, since what I had been through, I felt I could deal with whatever iboga gave me. Both my provider and I was at peace with what going on, but I am not with this situation totally, so that says a lot.

 


Offline JackTripper

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Re: legal liability for sitting
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2013, 01:10:48 AM »
Honestly i would avoid this situation  ddraig
desperation is not good enough of a reason to take Ibogaine.
Everytime i have had someone rush the situation, it has ended with the not so desired results.
Ibogaine is NOT a cure or a magic bullet, if the person goes into it thinking that there life will be fixed by a Flood
7 out of 10 times they are disappointed at the least & sometimes even worse can come from the experience.
Iboga is a tool not a fix it all.
It did work to very well to get me off of Methadone in Jan 2013 but I researched & worked my ass off for 2 years before i took it.
MAKE SURE HE IS OF LEGAL AGE !!!!!!
& i suggest you have him wait 6 months to a year before taking it.

 If he moves forward without you & has his girl friend sit for him at least its not on YOU personally.

Many red flags here as Alexandra Lost pointed out above.

this is just my opinion & i am still a novice but i have seen 1st hand & heard enough from those with much more experience to form this opinion. I'd say stay away from this situation for now.

   
The root does not work for you, you must work for the root.

Offline ddraig

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Re: legal liability for sitting
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2013, 01:29:02 PM »
thank you for the feedback all. This has given me some pause. I need to learn basic ER first. Getting in touch with some providers to see if I can get training as well and more information.

Offline Alexandra Lost

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Re: legal liability for sitting
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2013, 05:52:59 PM »
I would be aware of the age of the person you are sitting for relative to your own age.

If you are in your 30's 40's or older and are sitting for someone in their late teens or early twenties and there are serious complications it isn't going to look good and I don't think the parents of that kid would let you off the hook. You might get arrested and charged with practicing medicine without a license and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Even if you have a good case and you win you could spend a lot of time fighting a bunch of civil and criminal charges. Just my @ cents


Offline RhythmSpring

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Re: legal liability for sitting
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2013, 03:26:21 AM »
What if you're in your early 20s sitting for a man in his 30s?

Offline ddraig

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Re: legal liability for sitting
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2013, 01:13:05 PM »
Hi,

Not too worried about the age difference, from what I can tell he is in his 20s. probably mid 20s and does have his head together.

My next question is, what about countries where iboga/ibogaine is not regulated? You take a risk since the medicine is not registered and you are unlicensed and unprotected by the law if anything goes wrong. Does anyone use legal waivers/contracts to absolve the provider/sitter for responsibility in these countries? Of course there is the moral question of how you feel if something goes wrong, but a legal contract between the patient and sitter/provider would protect the provider from being sued for something as simple as the expectations of the patient not being met etc...

This is very important IMO, since a contract would specify what is understood and expected by the patient before taking the medicine, and would be legally binding. Its up to the provider to use their better judgement, through knowledge and experience on who they should treat.

Then of course, you could simply act as a sitter and let the patient buy the ibogaine elsewhere and merely sit and guide and let them self-administer, perhaps making the legal contract even simpler.

Any thoughts? This would be for countries like Canada or the UK.

Thanks!

Offline Alexandra Lost

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Re: legal liability for sitting
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2013, 09:29:36 AM »
Hi,
Of course there is the moral question of how you feel if something goes wrong, but a legal contract between the patient and sitter/provider would protect the provider from being sued for something as simple as the expectations of the patient not being met etc...

This is very important IMO, since a contract would specify what is understood and expected by the patient before taking the medicine, and would be legally binding. Thanks!

I'm pretty sure that regardless of what you do or what kind of contract you have you could still be sued. The question is really "would the contract assure you of winning the lawsuit?". It might, but you'd still have to deal with being sued and depending on what happened and who exactly brought the lawsuit there might be a strong emotional element that could work against you.

Offline ddraig

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Re: legal liability for sitting
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2013, 12:40:53 PM »
A carefully thought out contract should be fine for legal coverage. If someone wants to help people with this medicine, there will always be an emotional angle involved both with the positive and negative. I will talk to the provider in toronto some more about what he does nowadays.

Its obvious that running a clinic as a business primarily cannot be the way to proceed with this medicine, but using the legal contract/disclaimer combined with common sense and experience, should ensure that sitter/provider is protected in unregulated countries.

Will post back what I find out.