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Offline Sincerity

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Questions about Iboga and subutex
« on: December 14, 2012, 10:46:33 PM »
First of all I would like to say hello to everybody here. I only found this website recently and decided to register to get more information and experience of people who've been there and worn the t-shirt. Am relatively new to Iboga so am not too familiar with this medicine, I still need to learn about doses, how to digest Iboga and what types of Iboga's there are.

I am from London in the UK, and my situation is that I've been been taking subutex for the last 6 and a half years. I figure Iboga may be a solution in helping me get off subutex. I've read around where people are claiming that it's hard to detox subutex using Iboga, so my plan is to taper the subutex as comfortably as possible and give it about a month free of subutex before I do the Iboga. My dose at the moment is 1mg and am thinking by April or May I would be at 0.1 or the lowest dose possible, and then be off.

I have a few questions if people can be kind enough to answer.

Would reducing my intake of subutex slowly give Iboga more chance of doing it's work? I figure that the more you mentally adjust and get use to feelings of less subbies in your system the more you can at least mentally succeed if you use Iboga. My problem is the mental concept of withdrawal and these PAWS I keep reading on about (from the subbies). I can just about handle the psychical withdrawal but issues such as fogginess, depression and sleep may be an issue, so am thinking Iboga can at least give me a leg up.

Secondly is it possible to use boosters instead of a flood to help with lingering withdrawal symptoms or post residual symptoms? if I can get past the acute withdrawal am figuring boosters may be all is needed? considering I am tapering off the subutex slowly as possible.


Thirdly what is the best Iboga to use for people on long term subutex use? I emailed Michelle from Ibogaworld and she suggest TA, especially as boosters for PAWS, can TA be used as a flood dose as well?

How often do people usually take boosters  and what type of boosters do they use, for instance in PAWS  how many grams would you use and how often? whether once a week or once a month, and what type of Iboga.

and lastly is the amount of Iboga judged on your weight or can it also be judged on the length of your time on opiates, and in my case subutex 6 year usage. Am thinking I may need to use more Iboga then people on heroin and similar opiates, or is it strictly  only based on your weight?

Am looking for providers but they seem hard to come by in the UK, I contract Sara Glatt from Amsterdam in Holland but I believe she is going through a court case right now, hopefully by May or April she can be available or I can find someone closer to home. Or I may want to do Iboga in the near future so would prefer if I knew providers quickly as possible. I don't think I want to do it alone with a sitter or can this suffice?

I know the requirements such as pre-screening but am wondering can anybody here check my EKG and other tests to see if I can be a candidate? my doctor does not know much about Iboga so would not be able to tell if am a candidate for Iboga, also the fact I will have to make up an excuse to get tested because unless you're showing symptoms such as pain and have an alcohol problem they won't give you any tests.


Thank you for reading my case and I look forward from people's responses to enable me to make more of an informed decision in due course.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 10:52:34 PM by Sincerity »

Iboga Panacea

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Re: Questions about Iboga and subutex
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2012, 10:31:56 AM »
PM or look up threads by:

Grateful Dad or Lightswitchedon

Many threads on these matters due to Lightswitchedon's experiences and helpful contributions.

Offline GratefulDad

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Re: Questions about Iboga and subutex
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2012, 10:51:26 AM »
First of all I would like to say hello to everybody here. I only found this website recently and decided to register to get more information and experience of people who've been there and worn the t-shirt. Am relatively new to Iboga so am not too familiar with this medicine, I still need to learn about doses, how to digest Iboga and what types of Iboga's there are.

I am from London in the UK, and my situation is that I've been been taking subutex for the last 6 and a half years. I figure Iboga may be a solution in helping me get off subutex. I've read around where people are claiming that it's hard to detox subutex using Iboga, so my plan is to taper the subutex as comfortably as possible and give it about a month free of subutex before I do the Iboga. My dose at the moment is 1mg and am thinking by April or May I would be at 0.1 or the lowest dose possible, and then be off.

I have a few questions if people can be kind enough to answer.

Would reducing my intake of subutex slowly give Iboga more chance of doing it's work? I figure that the more you mentally adjust and get use to feelings of less subbies in your system the more you can at least mentally succeed if you use Iboga. My problem is the mental concept of withdrawal and these PAWS I keep reading on about (from the subbies). I can just about handle the psychical withdrawal but issues such as fogginess, depression and sleep may be an issue, so am thinking Iboga can at least give me a leg up.

Reducing your intake will definitely make iboga's job much easier.  Ideally, most people recommend switching to a shorter acting opiate, such as morphine, or anything with a much shorter half life, for about a month or so before iboga, because that also will greatly reduce the amount of post acute withdrawal symptoms you'll feel, (PAWS)..

Secondly is it possible to use boosters instead of a flood to help with lingering withdrawal symptoms or post residual symptoms? if I can get past the acute withdrawal am figuring boosters may be all is needed? considering I am tapering off the subutex slowly as possible.
 

Booster doses will definitely help reduce withdrawal symptoms, but without doing the flood, you would have to dose pretty decent sized amounts to really knock out all the withdrawal, and over time the accumulation will likely start to make you a little loopy, or in psychedelic mode.  I think it's best to do the full flood, then just use small boosters for a couple weeks after, as needed, to knock out the PAWS.. This way works best, and allows you the benefit of storing iboga metabolites in your fat that are released over time, but don't necessarily make you trip, they just keep away cravings and withdrawal..  This gives you the "ibo-glow" some people speak of after their floods.

Thirdly what is the best Iboga to use for people on long term subutex use? I emailed Michelle from Ibogaworld and she suggest TA, especially as boosters for PAWS, can TA be used as a flood dose as well?

TA can be used to flood, fully, it's what I have always used to flood, but by most accounts, the TA lasts much longer and has a few added effects, from extra alkaloids, than the HCl does.  The HCl seems to have the shortest recovery time, but for the long acting opiates, and tougher cases, I think a good mix of HCl and TA is what would work best.  Michelle usually gives great dosing advice, IMO, and I would follow her guidelines, but would also grab some extra TA or bark just in case.  They are great for boosters, and if you are not fully immersed while flooding, that little extra push from some more TA can really help out with the visions.  Bark is by far the most difficult to fully flood on..

How often do people usually take boosters  and what type of boosters do they use, for instance in PAWS  how many grams would you use and how often? whether once a week or once a month, and what type of Iboga.

This will vary from person to person, and I suggest listening to your body, because what works for me, may not work as well for you and vice versa.  However, a good booster would probably be like 8-10 mg/kg, and that could be done at the 90 day period, but for right after the flood, maybe 200-500 mgs of TA once a week for a month after, or a few grams of bark one day each week.  That worked for me.  If you are getting PAWS, taking just enough to feel it, often will remove many of those symptoms, but too many days in a row, and you will definitely want to take a break.  So just kind of try the guidelines I suggested, but adjust it as needed to make you most comfortable..

and lastly is the amount of Iboga judged on your weight or can it also be judged on the length of your time on opiates, and in my case subutex 6 year usage. Am thinking I may need to use more Iboga then people on heroin and similar opiates, or is it strictly  only based on your weight?

Most doses are calculated by your weight, however, a good provider will take into consideration the length of the addiction, and type of opiate, (especially the long acing ones, aka LAOs), your responsiveness to other psychedelic experiences, or your experience with them, and more.  Some people will need more like 25-30 mgs/kg, while some may get away with 12-15 mg/kg.  Women tend to be slightly more sensitive..  But for people like me, I would do 30 mg/kg easily, because I am pretty insensitive to almost every drug, especially psychedelics..

Am looking for providers but they seem hard to come by in the UK, I contract Sara Glatt from Amsterdam in Holland but I believe she is going through a court case right now, hopefully by May or April she can be available or I can find someone closer to home. Or I may want to do Iboga in the near future so would prefer if I knew providers quickly as possible. I don't think I want to do it alone with a sitter or can this suffice?

Doing it with a sitter is possible, but you need to really do all your research, and make sure you have a sitter that is ready and willing to take on what can be a difficult experience, and who is prepared to do anything necessary, should something go wrong.  They will need to monitor you at least every few hours for 2 days without getting sleep, and may need to help you to the bathroom, clean up puke, and not panic when you are overwhelmed by the trip.  They need to recognize any signs of danger, and should be able to take your pulse, and blood pressure too, ideally.  Many have gotten by with less, but it's not a great idea to gamble with your life.  There are a few UK providers, but I don't know how reputable they are personally.

Sara treated me, my first time, and I would recommend her, had she not been dealing with the courts.  Perhaps she has someone she could recommend, or if you hang out here, you may run across some other opinions, or even providers that you would feel comfortable with.  Whatever you decide, we'll do our best to help you make the best decisions you can, armed with all the information we can help you gather..

I know the requirements such as pre-screening but am wondering can anybody here check my EKG and other tests to see if I can be a candidate? my doctor does not know much about Iboga so would not be able to tell if am a candidate for Iboga, also the fact I will have to make up an excuse to get tested because unless you're showing symptoms such as pain and have an alcohol problem they won't give you any tests.


Thank you for reading my case and I look forward from people's responses to enable me to make more of an informed decision in due course.


You can probably get an EKG if you complain of chest pains..  I can't read them personally, but I am pretty sure we have someone here who could read it, or knows someone who can, so stick around..  You just need to check out that you have no weird arrhythmia, or a prolonged QT wave, and I am not sure what else..  Anyways, hope you can find all the answers you need, and welcome to Eboka,  I am sure other members will also offer any advice they can.

:)
GratefulDad

"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason."

Offline Sincerity

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Re: Questions about Iboga and subutex
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2012, 03:59:19 AM »

Thanks for the taking the time out to respond. I've read around some of the threads about sub and Iboga and am caught in 2 minds. I have spoken with Sara Glatt and she claims you can detox straight from suboxone even at 2mg, now many other people are saying you must be off the sub and on an opiate for long as possible before even considering Iboga, whether Sara has less experience with sub or she 's misinformed I dont know. If I was to indeed go for a flood from 1mg in January then I do not want to think later I under flooded, or if I was to wait couple of months and then do a flood it may be difficult to find a provider by then or Sara may not be available, so at the moment am caught in 2 minds

Greatfuldad if I can get through the acute phase can I use boosters for the PAWS? what am suggesting is that if I can use an opiate or tapering low to get past the initial stages of sub acute withdrawals without doing a flood of Iboga, and then simply use boosters for PAWS after.

Offline Calaquendi

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Re: Questions about Iboga and subutex
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2012, 08:23:27 PM »
Hello Sincerity and welcome to our humble abode, glad to have you  :)

You ask really great questions, smart and important ones, to the point - this says alot about your willingness to do things the right way and I always enjoy it when new members who have little or no experience ask the right questions...good stuff.

As usual, GD took the words right outa my mouth - you are well answered...if something else comes up or I re read the thread and have any ideas or suggestions I will chime back in with them.

Sara Glatt has more experience treating opiate/opioid dependency than many other people put together, and though not infallible (who amongst us is?) her word is trustworthy. YET -any discerning individual, which you certainly appear to be - will not take any one person's advice as gospel but will form opinions and base decisions on information gleaned from many sources, noting the places where consensus and agreements are strongest, and other areas that leave important questions unsatisfactorily...unsatisfied heh.

What you have tangentially encountered - and will continue to encounter on this topic - is what amounts to a perennial 'disagreement' most accurately described as one of personal (provider) preferences concerning safety, efficacy and practicality of treating what we call LAOs (long acting opiates) with iboga or ibogaine...some insist it is impractical and therefore could even be considered a waste of valuable resources and time (not to mention sometimes over hyping the physical risks), while others reason that if the specific protocols are followed exactly and the right materials used, so forth - that there is no reason to go through fifty different adjustments and make it more difficult than it needs to be. In short, some folks say 'yea' to iboga's therapeutic capabilities detoxing right off Subs and some say 'nay' - that ibo's effectiveness is dampened by the strange agonist/antagonist properties of such a complex drug as buprenorphine and that where PAWS is concerned the naysayers claim a drastic reduction in ibogaine's long term performance as compared to more traditional SAOs (short-acting opiates like Vicodin)

So much of all of this is so very individualized and unique to the one needing treatment. People respond differently to the same medications all the time, be it cannabis, alcohol, or even aspirin. We must always take that into account.

Your dose is low enough that you might be able to just 'hack it' for the acute phase, and to answer your question to GD - "yes" - if you do manage to quit and get through the main nastiness you can boost or microdose to help attenuate lingering PAWS. It seems the post acute phase is what grieves most Sub users the worst in any event - even if they do flood. More and more you read about people getting off the Subs and then having a rough way to go several weeks afterward. I think this is likely the main reason - or certainly one of them - that folks like to suggest being on short term opiates for as long as possible before an ibogaine detox, to mitigate the worst of the PAWS. As we mentioned earlier, everything is relative and everyone responds differently. Some are more sensitive to PAWS and some could give a poop less and just power through their symptoms. And everything in between...

So - I'm sure this post was a big help LOL  ;) mainly I just wanna welcome you and wish you luck. Hope to see more of you and keep researching and fighting the good fight!
" I am you and what I see is me..."

Offline roy d

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Re: Questions about Iboga and subutex
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2012, 01:21:32 AM »

Hi,
Cal gives both sides of the story but it seems that I have read many times people say I should of stayed on SAOs longer.  The severe depression from Sub can last for months and months from people I know who are telling me the truth.  I think if your able go the SAO route and make it easy on yourself. 

GD did kick methadone with Ibo but took a hell of a lot and was puking for days if I remember correctly.  Hey GD, may I ask how much Met you were taking and didn't it go a lot smoother with the pods?  Your puking story reminds me of mine, I was on the way to the hospital for the first time in my life and then made a phone call that saved me from having to go.

Best,

  Roy

Offline ready2stop

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Re: Questions about Iboga and subutex
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2012, 08:16:32 PM »
Here is one person's experience getting off Subs using SAO's and Ibogaine:

http://eboka.info/index.php?topic=1546.0


Good luck. 

Offline freedom

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Re: Questions about Iboga and subutex
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2013, 05:07:47 PM »
Am curious about this too, been asking and wondering about this in the past year.

Can I ask how does a SAO cut down on PAWS time? how does this mechanism work? I thought you take a SAO for long as PAWS are there which can be 6 months to a year, but now am reading that SAO can cut down on PAWS and not just mask the symptoms, I wonder how this works.. Example someone takes SAO for 7 months to combat sub PAWS but now am being told you only need to take SAO for 3 months to combat 6 months worth of sub PAWS, how does this work?   isn't the brain still covered by opiates so therefore quitting any type of opiate you will need to let your receptors produce natural endorphins and this is through PAWS? so how does a SAO cut down on PAWS time?

Am still not sure about Iboga from sub, suppose I will just continue to taper down and see how I feel.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 05:09:46 PM by freedom »

Offline fritzerman

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Re: Questions about Iboga and subutex
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2013, 06:13:11 PM »
Switching to SOAs before the iboga flood makes it easier for the ibogaine to do its work. I switched for 30 days when flooding to get off 5 years of Suboxone. That was my first flood 5 years ago or so. I avoided all major withdrawal. Had the usual post flood fatigue and then sleeplessness but that's normal. As for PAWS, switching to a SAO before the flood will help some with that. There are things that will help--exercise, good nutrition, some supplements and other things that will help. Read other posts. The tips are there. For me, PAWS has always been a battle even after ibogaine, but its a helluva lot easier than without iboga. I cold turkeyed once without anything and the difference is huge. Its not simple and takes some work. Read the thread about Ready2stop that is suggested. Ibogaine opens the door but you have to walk through and do your part. For a bunch of us it takes more than one try. Good luck.

Offline freedom

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Re: Questions about Iboga and subutex
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2013, 06:59:34 PM »
I can imagaine about the PAWS issue.

What I was asking was where people claim SAO cuts down on PAWS regardless if they Iboga or not. Having said that am still trying to figure out how a stay on  SAO for however long can cut down on months and months of WDs and PAWS, even if its for Iboga purposes.

@fitzerman-Did you take any boosters after your initial flood? I know sub withdrawal is mild but its the duration and brain getting back to normal (PAWS) is the problem. I was wondering too whether to take low dose boosters after I have weaned off subutex, surely a wean ti 0.1 can be enough to no need Iboga? and for PAWS perhaps small boosters?

I think it can be beneficial for the brain to adjust and go through months of adjustment and returning to normal without any treatment so when you jump and are in PAWS you'll be use to it and perhaps easier to adapt? then suddenly do Iboga or whatever and having to adapt to normalcy in few days to a week? might take a lot out of the brain, but we shall see down the line what happens.

Offline freedom

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Re: Questions about Iboga and subutex
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2013, 07:05:41 PM »
Yes I read that thread, it seems Iboga did not do what they expected, that also concerns me. When they took sub several weeks after Iboga they felt like in withdrawals again? that tells me Iboga did not really reset the receptors or anything because they should have felt like they never took sub and like it was for the first time whereby, you dont get withdrawals..   I don't know if 1 month will be long enough before Iboga, if even if Iboga is the right option for long term sub users. Again we shall see how I feel once I touch 0.2.

Offline fritzerman

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Re: Questions about Iboga and subutex
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2013, 07:14:56 PM »
freedom, I see now what you were actually asking. I think the switch to a SAO will lessen the withdrawal and PAWS compared to subutex. I don't agree that the withdrawals from subutex is less. I think its as bad acutely and much longer lasting. There are stories all over the internet of people having acute withdrawal for weeks after jumping off suboxone/subutex. Tough to go weeks with that. It was 3-4 days of hell for me to cold turkey off oxycodone. Can't imagine going weeks. That's why I turned to ibogaine. Couldn't jump off even when tapered down to a small dose. That's my experience. Good luck and welcome aboard. There are more answers(accurate answers) here than anywhere else i have found.

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Re: Questions about Iboga and subutex
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2013, 07:35:45 PM »
Quote
I don't know if 1 month will be long enough before Iboga, if even if Iboga is the right option for long term sub users.

Not enough IMO.  But when I say in my opinion I should say in my experience with others.  Should switch to SAO (Poppy Pods if possible) for at least 1 month but preferably 3 months.  My good friend had great experience very gradually microdosing on Iboga RB while switching to SAO (Poppy Pods is what he used).  And then very gradually having a bit more Iboga before the flood.  We failed on several levels(although he is "clean" now so failed is a weird term)...

(1) He was only on SAO for one month.  He says he should have been on them for at least 3 months, if he could have done it over.
(2) On the morning of the flood, which took place in the evening, he had Poppy Pods and was therefore not in withdrawal enough.  I/we made the mistake of thinking he was in withdrawal enough but I/we should have been much more strict in regards to the indication of clear cut withdrawal symptoms.
(3)He ended up with PAWS almost 3 hrs into the Iboga.  He should have had more Iboga too.  Need a lot for this, Sub users are the most difficult IMO.  So that's the other mistake because he didn't take enough Iboga.  Should not take it all at once though, incrementally for this very particular protocol. 

No slip ups here, be exact.  The last thing I/we/your sitter/and you wants to see is you in PAWS. 

Do you know who to PM on this?  We have 2 resident experts in this department, one has been absent for months now the other is Grateful Dad.  Grateful Dad please tell me if I should stop telling people to PM you otherwise I always try to refer people to you when this comes up.  I can imagine it becomes taxing so my apologies if it is an issue.

Offline freedom

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Re: Questions about Iboga and subutex
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2013, 10:36:05 PM »
So you have to be in withdrawal to do Iboga? I thought it did not make a difference for short acting opiates whether one is in WD or not, and Iboga still does its job. Or is it the case of more withdrawals and more Iboga?

Can you still take Iboga while switching to a SAO and on a SAO?

What if one weans down on the sub to 0.1 or something and then does an Iboga flood or boosters? they wouldn't need to be on a SAO then surely?

Iboga Panacea

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Re: Questions about Iboga and subutex
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2013, 10:53:35 PM »
I applaud you for your questions and thoroughness Freedom and soon to be complete and utter Freedom.

While this is no where near my expertise I do have some experience in this realm to answer your questions to the best of my ability...

Quote
So you have to be in withdrawal to do Iboga? I thought it did not make a difference for short acting opiates whether one is in WD or not, and Iboga still does its job. Or is it the case of more withdrawals and more Iboga?

Well I would say you need to be in withdrawal at least for 24 hrs if at all possible.  Even on SAO.  We ran into this problem with only 12 hrs. time in between last Poppy Pod dose and then Iboga.  We both acknowledged that it was a big issue that he was not in complete withdrawal. 

Quote
Can you still take Iboga while switching to a SAO and on a SAO?

Yes, but first and foremost let's exercise safety first.  So small microdoses of 500mg-1.5gr at most.  And yes this worked well for my friend as he was weening off subs to microdose.  Helped him tremendously.  He was able to take a bit more of Iboga each day he weened a bit more from subs. 

Quote
What if one weans down on the sub to 0.1 or something and then does an Iboga flood or boosters? they wouldn't need to be on a SAO then surely?
Bottom line is you don't want PAWS.  So no to flooding or boosters before completely switching over to SAO for at least and I mean at least 1 month.  But please try and consider switching over to SAO's for as long as you can, please.  For your sitters sake please.  I would say yes for sure switching over to SAO's is a necessity.  Some have had success without but that is extremely rare, chances are not in your favor if you don't.  Stack all the cards in your favor...PLEASE.  My friend was also doing Kambo which really helped him detox from the Subs.  So another possibility to consider maybe.  No shortcuts please, this should be a place for success and I think we all have a real love for beating the odds around here.  This place is built on miracles and it would be best for you to do so as well.