Author Topic: How to dose a flood  (Read 4694 times)

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Offline chow

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How to dose a flood
« on: March 14, 2013, 04:04:01 PM »
I am thinking, we should have a composite chart of all recommended dosages depending on the type of iboga plant and extract... quality and alkaloid percentages of certain websites that sell them too? It would definitely help people looking for their dose. Forums like these and others sometimes have competitive information, and are just plain difficult to navigate.

For example, after a little plucking and mucking around the only valuable stats I found for the alkaloid content of a TA extract from cerberus extract dot com is about 40-50%... (after several emails asking about the alkaloid and ibogaine content I've gotten about zip)
The dose recommendation that I've found for a flood experience with this particular extract is about 25 mg/kg. I am not even sure if this is entirely correct. I'd like some feedback.

ty, chow
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 07:04:09 AM by chow »

Offline BlueTiger

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Re: How to dose a flood
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2013, 05:39:06 PM »
Hi Chow,

Welcome to Eboka!  I understand your concern for a "chart" so to speak, but this is not the best way to introduce yourself to the forum. 

It is too difficult to determine the alkaloid content of every batch of every extraction of every harvest.  It's a big ordeal man.  So, IMHO Iboga dosing is measured with this in mind.  Plus, the alkaloids are metabolized differently depending upon the individual's liver enzymes. 

I think it may be best if you didn't disrespect the forum on your first post...even though you excused yourself, it is a bit disrespectful. 

Peace,

Blue 


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Re: How to dose a flood
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2013, 06:10:09 PM »
Maybe you could start your own forum Chow,
I can tell you what would happen if you put such clear cut info out to the public like that...

you'd get shut down.

Someone would follow your chart and it would not be safe for that individual.  Companies that were on a public forum for an exact protocol would get shut down by the FDA and/or DEA.  Everyone would avoid all the necessary pretreatment reading and they would just look at a chart instead.  I think there is real value in taking a lot of time to research here and elsewhere.  I can tell you it means a lot when someone comes on here and thanks us for all that we have done and said that they finally had the need to post.  For myself I researched for about 3 years before having Iboga and I think that really helped me prepare in a way that a chart could not.   

If everything we're one size fit's all then I don't think we'd be taking into account individual needs.  Case by case is a much better realm to work in if you ask me. 

Always room for improvement, but personally I'm very much for a anarchical society in general, maybe you like rules, maybe not.  We all have different needs.  In general the way this forum works out is if you stick around you will discover more and more about medicines and about humanity in general.  Usually when people come on here with confrontational posts like you made they don't last at all.  So in essence I'm not gonna put much more energy into it then I already did nor am I going to make a chart nor do a feel a chart would be helpful for long term results require long term research efforts. 

Offline lalababa

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Re: How to dose a flood
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2013, 07:27:15 PM »
Amen KP! 

Everyone reacts to the medicine differently.  I am a small woman and I can handle more Iboga (from same extraction) than some men *almost twice my size.

lala
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 11:58:20 AM by lalababa »

Offline chow

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Re: How to dose a flood
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2013, 12:45:44 AM »
My post was not meant to be confrontational. Sorry if I offended anyone.

My original intention was really to ask about Cerberus Extracts' TA alkaloid content and an appropriate dose for a 85 kg male but then I got a bit ranty. I've emailed them several times to no avail @_@

I understand that there's a lot of information floating around regarding people's metabolism and how they react to the iboga differently, some of it true and some of it deceptive, mostly just informative. My intention in saying there should be a chart was more of a suggestion to compose the forum into some kind of wiki. Imagine if we sifted through the massive amount of experiences and posts people have had on here and began to sum up this information methodically. We'd have real power in our hands. There's no derision to a scientific approximation.

Offline lalababa

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Re: How to dose a flood
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2013, 11:55:34 AM »
Hi chow,

I don't think Cerebus likes to give that information because of all the reasons stated above.  In my experience it is best to start with a test dose (of course) then start stacking the medicine until you have had enough.  Are you detoxing? If so, from what? A psycospiritual?  This is the information that is important when trying to come up with a basic dosing schedule.  Even with this information it is difficult to say " You should take_this amount_"  It is always good to have extra on hand... especially when detoxing.

lalababa

Offline chow

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Re: How to dose a flood
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2013, 09:48:33 PM »
Cerberus just contacted me, that is awesome!!!

Ultimately I became interested in iboga because I became personally intrigued by psychedelics as a healing tool, and also because my boyfriend has been on suboxone for a while and is looking to detox permanently without the hassle of tapering. (he's been on suboxone for about 5 years now)

So you're saying that one should slowly build up the iboga in your system before doing a final flooding dosage?
Are there methods to taper off suboxone and also introduce the iboga into one's system in a way to build up to a 'final' dosage?

Offline lalababa

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Re: How to dose a flood
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2013, 11:44:15 PM »
Hi chow,

No, I am not saying to build up before flooding, but stacking while/during the flood.  Though RB could be used to taper a dose before hand.  Suboxone is one of, if not the hardest to come off of, even with Iboga.  It has been done successfully but it isn't easy.  There are several threads on the issue, I would use the search at the top for more info for coming off of subs.  Lowering the dose is important and if possible switching to SAO's for awhile.  This is a tough one.  For a Psycospiritual you would probably need less (maybe15mg/kg?) than 25mg/kg... you would probably need at least that for a sub detox.  I would use the search and keep reading as much as possible.  Research is key.  I researched for well over a year before going into it for a methadone detox, I still had paws for awhile and I was  even able to switch to SAO for a month before hand.

lalababa

Offline Calaquendi

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Re: How to dose a flood
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2013, 02:47:19 AM »
Welcome chow, nice to have you here!

I appreciate your concerns and suggestions - a wiki is something that will inevitably, be inevitable I think. We have already been through one or two models, but have not found the formula that suited us - in a sense it is already a work in progress, so...you are psychic, eh?  ;)

I think you ask sharp questions,  this is good. Although there are protocols and similarities across the board, practically no one has the same experience as another. Detox, psycho/spiritual, whatever...Iboga however, will always, each and every time, do what it does. Always.

The 'way it works' - so much is still unknown, even in the deepest scientific data and cross-referencing of materials we can find, there is a big, wonderful question mark over much of the pharmacodynamics concerning ibogaine and its analogues. It appears we have an idea which parts of the brain are affected and a little bit of an idea concerning the degree of these effects, but a big zero on the actual how these effects are generated (and modulated)...there are theories, and many of them are good educated guesses based on what information is available -- [including anecdotal/experiential reports on forums like this one]
  As with the theory that endogenous DMT is produced in the pineal gland, which is IMHO probably the case (because, come on where else would it come from?)even the most attractive propositions remain only that, until we can understand more through human trials.

Yet experience is the best teacher as far as I am concerned, and any discerning person will never look at any one item and take it as Gospel, especially when the dangers of such an endeavor are evident and openly discussed.

I encourage you, and everyone else, to look around and share here, but not to find something that 'sounds just like me' and jump into it...(I personally don't get that vibe from you at all, but I am trying to illustrate a point for anyone/everyone reading this thread.)

Yes, there are protocols for many different kinds of dosing in place, and - unrealistic as it may seem - much of the information has coagulated as a result of consensus derived from 'lay' people comparing their own notes with one another, sharing experiences with providers or DIY, and basically sticking around long enough to not only get a head full of things to sift through, but to truly get the feel for the medicine. You can feel it before you ever even set eyes on it. Many people experience this.

Intuition is scientifically unquantifiable, and so, worthless...this is the view of all too many Western thinkers, not only doctors and other professionals; but of everybody who listens to them like they're the only ones who can know medicine. This is a different kind of medicine, a different model for healing and personal development, there is nothing else like it on Earth. It is, in an uncomfortably true sort of way: Psychic Surgery. A reset, it is sometimes called. So much more than a rapid detox from chemicals.

Your boyfriend has been on Suboxone a long time. What dose is he taking? That stuff is insidious, and I think you will find that most agree the hardest to pull away from, even if you use this method, any part or parts of a method specifically designed for YOU, it will be difficult. But there are ways to improve one's chances, and titrating down to a low dose of Subs, then rolling on to an SAO is the smartest way to go IMO.  The biggest mistake people make is hurrying the process along...never rush it. You are here, and we welcome you and your ideas, and I hope that with a little patience and some research, you will be able to begin the journey in earnest.

Search the search function here or Google, 'Dirty Maintenance' - this is a protocol designed by Patrick Kroupa (who has worked with Dr.Mash and is one of the longest-standing advocates for ibogaine) by which small amounts of ibogaine hydrochloride salts are taken concomitantly with (whatever) narcotic analgesic someone has a high tolerance to. This method can be successfully and safely employed to expedite the titration process - but extra care and discussion prior to implementation is needed, because there are elevated risks involved when taking potent narcotics and ibogaine together.

Check the place out, glad to welcome you - and best of luck! If in your searching you discover something new or impressive please share it here as well! ~Cal
" I am you and what I see is me..."

Offline BlueTiger

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Re: How to dose a flood
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2013, 04:25:56 PM »
Chow,

I agree with Cal and La.  Subs seem to be the worst of them all. 

IMHO, don't plan this flood anytime soon.  Once he has switched to SAO's, wait about 2-3 months before flooding, if possible.  The longer that period of time off subs and on SAO's will likely cut his recovery time down significantly (post flood).

Peace,  Blue

P.S.  Ibogaine HCL is showing the best results for opiate addiction interruption.  Like La said, it's best to have extra on hand for MDing.  We can talk more about that too if you'd like. 

Offline chow

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Re: How to dose a flood
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2013, 04:03:13 PM »
Hey all.. sorry I haven't replied for a while. I went on a three day streak of just gobbling up your detox sub related threads. I talked to my boyfriend a little more too and as much as I may have been the one completely thrilled and excited about the iboga he... just isn't that ready for it. >>;
Thanks for all your input tho I really appreciate the advice and the information!

Cal, I totally agree with most of what you said! Except for the pineal gland containing DMT... I'm pretty sure that it was just randomly conjectured by Dr. Strassman because it had a lot of value potential as its been appraised as this wonderful mystical organ by sum historical figures. But prior to that there isn't any real clear scientific evidence that it has anything to do with DMT production... tbh I have yet to fully divulge my inquiries beyond that, other than sifting through some paper and well the DMT Nexus of course  :D. They have tons of interesting reads and they really flesh out the debates down on there. I did read his book tho, twas a bit hokey for a scientist, especially one who is conducting some of the first research on psychedelics in what was it about 4 decades?

And yeah there is a call that takes place and a certain intuition about the world that people exercise and develop and isn't just plain three dimensional.. some call it spirituality lol!
My first runner up experiences with iboga were little hints of advice asking me to accept its spirit.. and boom crazy dreams and feelings of well being. Just even reading positive trip reports sends me all slicey. It is definitely a healing plant.. but more than that it's a portal to truth and knowledge and fereedom1!!

In general I am super interested in alternative medicine/healing perspectives. Going to become a biomedical lab tech for a decent living while I study and it is scary and exciting because I want to know everything and everything doesn't just mean becoming a doctor @___@

I actually completely defiled the ibogaine archives with my mind ugh for a while that's all I was hooked into. As for the dirty maintenance that is something I was thinking about.. I was seeing a lot of rooting going on in the eboka suboxone threads for the root bark capsules. But you would say that slimming down the sub with HCL is my best bet?

My boyfriend has been trying to lower his sub dose by switching it between methadone and the suboxone. Just experimenting (he thinks it's working but it's not exactly scientific, in fact it's a bit of a mess, still working on it!)... he's from the states and gets his carries brought over every month by his parents (we live in canada). But his doctor is getting impatient with these shenanigans, and he is plain tired of the paws. Sometimes when he runs out of subs and he's on the methadone, I think just switching up his biochemistry makes his day a sliver of a goddamn brighter!

As for the switching to SAOs, it took him a while but he's somewhat interested in the pods and the kratom as cheap alternatives.. but yet I must stress this, after experiencing something like a loved one having an opiate addiction tear me and all the things I thought were valuable and true completely to shreds.. is that I am helping him and it's his process and it's his body.

chow

ps why yes i've been told that I am a bit psychic ;D

Offline BlueTiger

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Re: How to dose a flood
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2013, 08:45:30 PM »
I was seeing a lot of rooting going on in the eboka suboxone threads for the root bark capsules. But you would say that slimming down the sub with HCL is my best bet?

No, I apologize for the confusion there.  I have MD'ed all forms of Iboga and I believe the bark is the best in the end.  I am only speaking in terms of post flood MDing in order to prolong the levels of the metabolite(s) on the receptors, and continued integration....
What I meant was HCL seems to be showing better results for flood doses in opiate drug interruption.  At this point, the only thing keeping me from wanting to do a Bwiti initiation is the toxicity risk of eating all that bark.  Bark at the homeopathic dose (sub-psychoactive) seems it serves many functions....

Your boyfriend is lucky to have someone so invested in all this due diligence done for him....

In general I am super interested in alternative medicine/healing perspectives. Going to become a biomedical lab tech for a decent living while I study and it is scary and exciting because I want to know everything and everything doesn't just mean becoming a doctor @___@

A.) Spiritual connection serves a purpose.
B.) Scientific proof is NOT everything. 

Keep these things in mind when you process the world.  Your career endeavor sounds interesting to me as well.  Be well Chow and may you find what you are looking for. 

Peace,

Blue