Author Topic: Dune - Frank Herbert  (Read 3142 times)

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Offline samyama

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Dune - Frank Herbert
« on: April 12, 2013, 02:37:53 PM »
After doing a flood I found myself reading some of Herbert's Dune books again. There's so much in there that resonates with the things Iboga shows. Especially the later novels, like Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse are so rich in thinking that makes me think that Herbert did Iboga himself.

Those things about mental projections and patterns, then the memories of ancestors and the like. The way subconscious relates to the conscious and how one can interact between those. It's all there in those novels.

The man was really a visionary and I have to say it's only now I get into the deeper stuff he wrote. So I post it in hopes somebody has found a same affinity and we can have a discussion about it. (reading helps when getting down from a flood)

 :P




Offline cricket

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Re: Dune - Frank Herbert
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2013, 03:45:56 PM »
...at first. i wasnt gonna respond about this at all..
until i realized that I have read both books you mentioned immediatly after a flood and then after a booster...
i am curious sometimes to what books people gravitate to after a session....

now i am curious about frank herberts books showing up in peoples post iboga appearances..

I have noted on a number of occasions that I will see Ceremony by leslie marmon silko and also the never ending story..

Offline Calaquendi

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Re: Dune - Frank Herbert
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2013, 07:33:55 AM »
MAN!

I am waay too tired to get into this now, but a Dune discussion thou shalt havest...I'm a super fan of the whole series, even the first two books written by Herbert's son and Kevin J. Anderson are passable - but they are NOT 'true' Dune.

Yea, I look forward to this very much...it took me a few tries to read the last two books, especially Chapterhouse it was so damned far out, at first I thought Herbert was losing it like David Lynch lol...but after a revisit I found them to be the richest and most remarkably creative volumes in the series - I'd love to see a GOOD rendering of God Emporer made into a decent 3 hour film...though we all know movies seldom if ever do the books justice. And those dumb Sci-Fi channel movies are an abomination...forget that they mispronounce 'Harkonnen' - I found I could not endure the stoopid costumes, I was hypnotized by all the damned hats - unnecessary and just - dumb.

Anyways a little spatchka  is in order for ole Cal but I look forward very much to this discussion...GREAT THREAD!  ;D
" I am you and what I see is me..."

Offline cricket

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Re: Dune - Frank Herbert
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2013, 12:15:49 PM »
“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

... and my ancestors....
ha

Offline samyama

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Re: Dune - Frank Herbert
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2013, 04:35:33 PM »
Allright, let's have it then  8)

The spice extends life. The spice expands consciousness. The spice is vital to space travel.

The first novel starts in an empire consisting of a lot of planets and it has been around for about 10.000 years. It came to be after computers were banned.

How could this empire be there for 10.000 years? Compare it to our present view of time and development. Our society presents itself as a such blessing compared to the feudal middle ages of europe. So in the light of this, how come Herbert invents a empire that is basically a kind of feudal system but with space travel?
Most scifi stories are not so far out like his... There could be a reason behind the setting. Did he see his universe as a far more natural kind of evolution then our present age? His story is it came to be after they banned the technology that is typical of the rapid acceleration of our present age...

The old chinese empire is maybe a bit of comparison. It has been around for millenia and they had a steady evolution in all kind of fields. Stable and progressive. Stark contrast with europe's.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 04:38:51 PM by samyama »

Offline samyama

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Re: Dune - Frank Herbert
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2013, 01:08:29 PM »
Ah welll. I thought let's do setting first.

Anyway they got the spice and that's what makes it all tick. The DMT'ers claim it theirs, since the spice gives acces to hyperspace. But I don't know. If you read the novels it's much about expanding consciousness in ways that includes the ordinary state. Like accessing ancestral memories and reading people subconsciousness.
In a way ofcourse iboga has a potential of being 'the spice', since it does all that. It expands consciousness from the ordinary state of waking and gives a lot of psychic abilities. Much like the bene gesserit of the novels, witches who are able to perceive and manipulate subtle cues on basis of their expanded consciousness.

One thing the spice does as well is extend lifespan...

I thought it hinted to the notion of soma, the ancient indian drug remedy which until now hasn't been proven to be this or that substance. It was considered to be the ideal drug for everything and could have served as a inspiration for the spice.

The spice by the way is generated by sandtrout and these give birth to giant sandworms. Lately I saw a documentary about african deserts and there is a species (of lizard I think), that can swim underneath sands. Very intruiging to watch. Like all of this has inspiration in the real world somehow.

Offline cricket

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Re: Dune - Frank Herbert
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2013, 06:45:34 PM »
ill throw in something too about the sand worms... ever notice how often we share similar visions during the intitial dream state?... spirit of the forest... severed toes... toothbrushes (three accounts thus far on THAT odd and "random" thing to be the center piece of vision)

I have heard a few times about people seeing a giant worm like you would imagine from dune floating thru the field of vision in big S's...
(i have heard a couple references too that in Gabon they see the same form and thats part of the Basse' Basse'... I have only heard this reference being called basse once from a second hand but reliable source ( i just thought basse basse was part of the large linguistics of language for that area in general, but what do i know)

i didnt even think about it till you mentioned it.. curiouser and curiouser

Offline Calaquendi

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Re: Dune - Frank Herbert
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2013, 07:43:31 AM »
Herbert is a favorite author - and the Dune books are a treasure. Rare stuff IMO. Good fiction or fantasy is only ever good if it could be...true. Tolkien's 'The Silmarillion' trumps the shit out of the entire LOTR trilogy and it is one slim volume by comparison. He created a cosmology every bit as 'real' and believable as any Greek or Roman - or even contemporary for that matter - Pantheon. It is beautiful. So it is with Herbert's Dune universe...

Synopsis:  The series begins in the year 10191 - the Known Universe is ruled by a dynastic Emperor who fears the growing popularity of a cousin - the noble Duke Leto Atreides - who is ruler of a Minor House in the Empire's version of a Senate (the Landsraad). The Emperor devises a cunning plan to rid himself of the competition, enlisting the assistance of another noble family (House Harkonen) with whom the Atreides family has a long running feud. The Harkonnens belong to a House Major, [outranking Houses Minor in the Landsraad by virtue of their socioeconomic standings and sheer size] AND they control, by virtue of fiefdom, planet Arrakis...
  This is important becuase, at this time in human history, the most precious substance in existence is the 'spice' - called colloquially, melange and it is only found on this one planet, neither can it (yet) be synthesized. It is a natural resource exclusively found on Arrakis, and as yet its fundamental genesis is undiscovered. Humans know only that it is mined in the vast wastelands of Arrakis (Dune) - a desert wholly uninhabited and uninhabitable [save for a tribal host of pseudo-primitive human beings known as 'Fremen'] and rife with impossibly dangerous sandstorms and gargantuan killer sandworms.

  The Empire plays to oust the Harkonnens from their rule of Dune - and consequently their spice monopoly - and replace them with the house of Atreides, but is faithless and arranges the Duke's assassination by the evil and gnarly Baron Harkonnen. Thus, ridding himself of a rival to the Throne and keeping the status quo while not getting his hands dirty...the problem is, the emporer did not calculate some very serious shit in his equations.

Two main Schools of Thought (as it were) are at the van of human consciousness at this era in history. And they are, while ostensibly and fundamentally 'equal', diametrically and perfectly opposed: first is the Spacing Guild. This is awesome shit - the Guild is responsible for interstellar travel. Screw hyperspace, these guys got it going on. Lightspeed is nothing, its treading water where such enormous distances are concerned and totally ineffective. The Guild has learned the trick of 'traveling without moving; - [as have many of us lol] - by FOLDING SPACE. Bad-ass man...they do this with a device called a Holtzman Generator, but that alone is useless without some Mind to thread the needle of open space, lest we run into an asteroid field or get marooned...enter the Third Stage Guild Navigator (or Steersman) - the baddest of the Bad - these creatures are thousands of years old and of ambiguous origin in the early novels, ugly mofos swimming in tanks filled with spice gas. They direct the course of foldspace by highly advanced mathematical algorithms that they incorporate into a kind of trance using the spice, and ONLY the spice can do this...they thread the needle of the Highliners used for interplanetary travel - the generators create folded space and Navigators, well, they navigate.
  The second School, and my favorite since I suck at math, is the mystical pseudo-religion of the all female Bene Gesserit discipline - an incredibly deep system of manipulating specific bloodlines and genetics going back eons, with the stated goal of creating a super-human, known as the Kwisatz Haderach (for sure Herbert did drugs) for the purposes of basically becoming the Ruling Elite [like everyone seems to want] only nobody counted on what amounts to Fate, I think...this story is so in depth and so heavy that it is more like Frank Herbert had a crystal ball and dictated shit like Nostradamus skrying in a bowl of water: it is actually a completely believable tale, as long as you can believe we humans do not murder each other off before we reach 10191.

  Anyway, the Duke has a concubine who is Bene Gesserit. She was ordered to only bear a girl child, so that the formula the 'Witches' have been working so long for may come closer to fruition (they believe they are extremely close, within three generations of reaching their goal) but she disobeys the sisterhood and births a son to the Atreides Duke. The child is named Paul and was surreptitiously trained by his mother in the subtle innuendo and martial arts of Bene Gesserit disciplines, another big time no-no. So for the first time a male is trained - albeit forbidden - in the ways and arts of the exclusively female systems employed by the sisterhood. This is bad news for lots of people but they do not yet realize it.

  On Dune, the Atreides army is ambushed, the Duke killed and Paul and Jessica (royal concubine and Paul's mother) are taken to the deep desert and left to die...there they run into a tribe of Fremen and are eventually merged with their culture. The empire has not been able to take an accurate census of the Fremen and so regard them as little more than an annoyance and frown upon them as uncivilized dirtbags. The real truth is there are vast numbers of these people and [thanks to a Bene Gesserit practice called 'missionaria protectiva'] there has been a legend 'planted' on Dune regarding the coming of (what amounts to) a messiah...who they take to be Paul...since this young fellow has been trained in what is known as 'Weirding Way' - the BG disciplines - he is primed to fulfill Fremen prophecy and freaks everyone out by his abilities. He has only one test left to make him the supreme bad ass - an initiation that has killed every single Man who has attempted it, each male that has tried to drink this 'water of life' has died from the poison. This liquid is the concentrated form of melange, a blue fluid gleaned from the still born infant sand worms - mondo-powerful shit that only the Bene Gesserit can use to become the high order of Reverend Mother (pretty much space shamaness) and even then some women cannot survive the ordeal. They must transmute the poison fluid within their bodies, all while being totally wasted in the heaviest trance imaginable, yay!
  So Paul does this and becomes Muad'dib - the fabled Kwisatz Haderach - the big time seriousness, makin it rain in here - big dog. (Don't try this at home)  :P

Then they kick all the bad guys asses and the movie David Lynch directed ends...or you can read the series if you aren't getting laid or have lots of spare time, it is truly an incredible story despite my lame attempts at humor and sarcasm.

  I think the real point of this thread is how art imitates Life, and/or vice versa. The plausibility of such a story is really undeniable if once we let our imaginations go -  and an artist of Herbert's order is nothing short of a wizard. How many times has science fiction become science fact?  ??? Many, many times...

  There are parallels to the Hero's Journey, the archetypical stories of yore, the Holy Grail Quests and the like...basically I see these as facets of our own respective and collective Journey, and great storytelling resonates deeply with me, for what are we if not our own stories?

" I am you and what I see is me..."

Offline samyama

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Re: Dune - Frank Herbert
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2013, 02:02:12 PM »
Hey Calaquendi, nice summary you wrote.  :)

Quote from: Calaquendi
Two main Schools of Thought (as it were) are at the van of human consciousness at this era in history.

There is a third school as well. They are called 'Mentats'. In short they are people trained to act as a human computer. But not as a simple calculator of logic, but as individuals trained in digesting large amounts of data and arrive at patterns that go beyond logic. To do this they have a 'naive mind', which is cultivated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentat


In the first novel duke Leto Atreides has Thufir Hawat as mentat. He basically advises the duke on enterprises in a way to assess it in all possible aspects and vantage points.

In later novels there are many others of this school. In Heretics & Chapterhouse Herbert goes into details on the way in  which a mentat's minds work. It works with generating projections on the basis of vasts amounts of data. These projections are not simple answers to questions, but the revealing of patterns that underlie and proceed from the initial questions. One question gives many others, and in this way one can arrive at a projection.
Basically this seems to me as a construct on the basis of data that serves to be the most accurate possible. So very interesting, because this is holistic reasoning. No linear cause and effect, but complex networks of things, events and possiblites linked together.

Quote from: Calaquendi
  I think the real point of this thread is how art imitates Life, and/or vice versa. The plausibility of such a story is really undeniable if once we let our imaginations go -  and an artist of Herbert's order is nothing short of a wizard. How many times has science fiction become science fact?  ??? Many, many times...

If I were a woman, then I would start the Bene Gesserit...  ;)

I have asked myself many times, when do people arrive with those abilities Herbert describes? Sometimes I think they are already here.