Author Topic: RB microdoses: amphetamine, kratom  (Read 4907 times)

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Offline conejo

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RB microdoses: amphetamine, kratom
« on: April 10, 2013, 02:35:26 PM »
Mods, move, edit, etc, as appropriate.

I've searched the forum, and dug by hand, and combed the compost pile for clues. I'm clear that amphetamine and/or kratom use should be discontinued completely for some days before attempting a flood. 

I'm still searching but so far I haven't seen any mention of their use while microdosing. I'm sure no one advises it but it's hard to believe nobody's attempted this with either or both until now. 

I've used the NMDA antagonist memantine extensively with both. Iboga's NMDA antagonism is cited most often as contraindicating its use with them, but usually in the context of discussing flood-size doses.

For 4 days I've reduced chronic daily doses:
Memantine - 0 mg (was 20mg)
D-amp - 25mg (was 40mg)  
Kratom - 8g stem and vein (was 8g plain leaf)
Caffeine - 200-300 mg (was 400mg)  

I hope to be done with the first two - d-amp and kratom - completely, at some point. Tall order. 

I added 200 mg RB yesterday and today. Hard to say what if anything is different at this point.

Like I said in my forum intro, I've read the accounts and I believe every word: I wouldn't dream of flooding prematurely. Absent others' accounts, though, I know I'm sounding this variation on "dirty maintenance" based on admittedly questionable judgement, keyword "questionable". 

For instance, the modes and degrees of NMDA antagonism vary too widely for me to comprehend right now. If anyone can intelligibly compare memantine's to that of iboga alkaloids, I'd love to hear it.

Thanks to all           



Offline blight12

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Re: RB microdoses: amphetamine, kratom
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2013, 10:44:45 AM »
I can comment on Kratom in combination with RB. I began microdosing just less then 1g starting yesterday, 10 days after finally tapering and ending my SSRI addiction of 8 years (thank the gods)

I must say I am very surprised with the degree of mood enhancing effects and comfortable positive stimulation/sedation (feels like a low dose amphetamine with a few beers) at such a low amount.

Its much better then I expected based on the reports. Very impressive as an anti depressant and anti anxiety treatment and excellent replacement for my SSRI's.

Anyway the purpose of this is to reduce my Kratom tolerance. I very much enjoy Kratom and it keeps me away from real opiates and meth. Today I tried low dose leaf powder Kratom perhaps 3 hours after the Iboga (so its still in effect) and i noticed a reasonable reduction in tolerance ( nothing amazing yet) and no other issues at all to imply its critical you never combine the two.

I believe the risks of Iboga combined with other drugs (except for SSRI's or SRI's which have SS risks) is always related to the reduction in tolerance and therefore the risk of OD. Am I right?

I would however be much more careful with Iboga and amps due to its Serotonin activity. I do meth occasionally but would never personally try any sort of combo. I am also hoping my new daily Iboga treatment will keep the amps at bay forever.

But that's just my experience, not a recommendation of any kind. Cheers.

Offline conejo

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Re: RB microdoses: amphetamine, kratom
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2013, 03:08:59 PM »
Thanks for the input, blight. :) Congrats on getting past SSRI, amps, non-kratom opies. I hope you'll keep us posted 

I'm sure potential risks of combinations arise from reduced tolerance, but it might be more complicated, and less predictable than that.   

My only interest in "combinations" is to get me past my chronic doses far enough to meet the medicine alone.   

Day  mg RB
1       200
2       200
3       300
4       400
5       200

Stopped RB 3 days ago. Amp and kratom doses are still lower than before microdoses.

Overall: unsettling, but not dramatically unpleasant. I'll try it again in a few days or weeks. WithOUT the amp.   
 
Even with reduced doses of amp and kratom, I felt more and more scattered and anxious, slightly dysphoric and impaired, a lot like the undesirable effects of excess amp.

Definitely MORE insomnia and anorexia.
Definitely NO trails or lights.
Definitely not nothing: a few instants of shifted perspective on my problems, not immediately earth-shaking, but definite departures; "useful" or not is hard to know.

Pressure in my head, not outright headache, and not so much cardiovascular as musculoskeletal; not intolerable, but kind of intrusive. That might just be the pollen though.

Thanks all
       

Offline Calaquendi

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Re: RB microdoses: amphetamine, kratom
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2013, 10:01:33 PM »
...I'm still searching but so far I haven't seen any mention of their use while microdosing. I'm sure no one advises it but it's hard to believe nobody's attempted this with either or both until now.

  You're correct: no one (thus far) discusses it... and certainly it's one of 'those things' where it is inappropriate to "advise" or openly advocate concomitant use of iboga with these substances, particularly via internet-based discourse where personal accountability and forum liability are sadly (and too commonly) found at odds with one another.
  This is not to say, though, that "nobody has attempted" these ideas before - it is however, the reason you have found such difficulty searching for commonality among the threads and posts here. I have had to make sure that many of these ideas' discussions were curtailed or blatantly omitted, especially earlier in the boards' history...when paranoia and ill-favored trolls were jumping at every chance to discredit reasonable hypotheses or cut off the head of any idea that, however well conceived, remotely approached what 'they' would consider the 'danger zone'. Never-mind that Life Itself - LIVES (by virtue of its own existence)....IN the danger zone! And so it is with iboga therapies; be they known protocols or smart conceptions yet in utero - we all know, or shortly will know if we research even a little bit, that ibogaine has a mortality rate and using it (in any mode) CAN be dangerous.
 
Quote
I've used the NMDA antagonist memantine extensively with both. Iboga's NMDA antagonism is cited most often as contraindicating its use with them, but usually in the context of discussing flood-size doses.

For 4 days I've reduced chronic daily doses:
Memantine - 0 mg (was 20mg)
D-amp - 25mg (was 40mg) 
Kratom - 8g stem and vein (was 8g plain leaf)
Caffeine - 200-300 mg (was 400mg) 

Like I said in my forum intro, I've read the accounts and I believe every word: I wouldn't dream of flooding prematurely. Absent others' accounts, though, I know I'm sounding this variation on "dirty maintenance" based on admittedly questionable judgement, keyword "questionable".

For instance, the modes and degrees of NMDA antagonism vary too widely for me to comprehend right now. If anyone can intelligibly compare memantine's to that of iboga alkaloids, I'd love to hear it.

  I googled memantine and have given it a cursory perusal as my time allows right now - also, your post indicates that you have successfully discontinued this medication, so unless you pick it back up in the near future it looks like it is out of the way...Memantine is in a class of drugs indicated for dementia and Alzheimer's disease: NMDA receptor antagonist, 5-HT3 antagonist - similar drugs in this class include Ketamine and nicotine. Some good starting points for focused research there.
  If it doesn't breach personal protocol, would you care to elaborate on why you were taking memantine? Were you prescribed this by your physician or is it something you took on your own as part of your own 'cocktail'? I have done, and likely will continue on some level- to create and observe my own protocols where medications are concerned, I am my own best doctor since nobody knows me as good as I do. If shit hits the fan for real, I will enlist outside help, like...I won't try to do brain surgery on Calaquendi, but other, minor surgeries, sure...probably...I'd cut off a wart or something, rather than pay out the arse for someone half my age to charge me ten times my age to do something I can accomplish with two shots of Wild Turkey and a pair of fingernail clippers.  :o

  Your respect for the sensitivity of matters (such as this variation on 'dirty maintenance') is one reason I will allow this thread to continue. Sooner or later these things will come up - and my thinking is that I would rather see an intelligent discussion about the ins and outs, pros and cons, do's and don'ts - than have nothing at all, anywhere at all to use as any reference point.

  This is NOT...I repeat NOT to say that ANYTHING discussed in such a thread is 'OKAY' - or that me, pkeffect, this forum, or your great-great grandmommas  - advocate, endorse or approve of anything you may or may not -  do or not do - as the result of reading anything here at all...(puff of breath) DIG?
 
PS - none of this is meant to flex any attitude...I am only trying to illustrate the seriousness of these kinds of unexplored and typically not-well-received ideas, my first order of business is to protect this community at large, and I won't fail in this endeavor. Thanks for understanding ~ Cal
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 03:22:16 AM by Calaquendi »
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Offline conejo

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Re: RB microdoses: amphetamine, kratom
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2013, 11:30:36 AM »
^^^
I dig. :)
After posting my intention, and following through, my attempt suggests firstly that I'm probably less willing right now to give up amphetamine than I say I am. 

It's also an example of wishful thinking, poor judgement, and poor impulse control, on my part. It turned out about as bad as I thought it would, which is to say unpleasant without becoming tragic. It was still a dumb gamble and I might not be so lucky next time. 

To say that small doses of root bark "potentiate" amphetamine is misleading. More specifically, IME, root bark selectively "amplifies" some effects of amphetamine in a way that makes even small doses unpleasant, virtually useless, and probably dangerous.

Risking tedium, let me re-state: root bark (IME) does NOT make amphetamine usefully effective in smaller amounts. 

It is a whole nother animal than opies with root bark, much more likely to bite.

I'll post this now and get back with you about the memantine.

Cal, I appreciate your indulgence. Like I said first thing, up at the top: totally your call on this conversation; if it evaporates before lunch, I'm not attached.

Honestly, it STILL feels kind of iffy.

Take what's useful, bin the rest. :)

Thanks again
   

Offline blight12

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Re: RB microdoses: amphetamine, kratom
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2013, 02:11:22 PM »
^^ Interesting. If Iboga with amps increases the negative effects that might indicate a reduction in the tolerance for the peripheral or SNS stimulation side of things.

Either way I personally might consider very careful "dirty maintenance" or combinations with opioids but almost certinally not stimulants of any kind, especially Serotonin based stims.

Offline conejo

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Re: RB microdoses: amphetamine, kratom
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2013, 05:45:20 PM »
Memantine might help with tolerance to amps and opioids. Off and on for the last 3 or 4 yrs, it might or might not have helped keep my doses as low as they've been. I can't swear to any difference either way.  

Self-prescribed, unscheduled, from India, maybe 6 months on, average, per year. No abuse potential by itself, and no withdrawal. It might be noticeable only as a very mild weirdness when titrating up, for 3 weeks, from 5mg/day, to the recommended  20mg/day. Completely transparent otherwise. 

Recreational use is impossible, according to reports of high-dose attempts that describe instead, weeks if not months of impaired cognitive function.

What was the question?

Oh right. Yes, not mixing that either.

Like I say i'm curious about the respective mechanisms of nmda receptor antagonism by various agents  ---   how they compare on paper, not in vivo.