Author Topic: Harmalas, MAO & MAOIs  (Read 3333 times)

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Offline Eon T McKnight

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Harmalas, MAO & MAOIs
« on: May 04, 2010, 09:12:35 PM »
This is a serious subject and fuzzy thinking and speculation could lead to DEATH.

Please be encouraged to provide complete articles from peer-reviewed scientific journals  --  abstracts are only part of the story and may be misleading.

Wiki articles, erowid, dmt-nexus and ayahuasca.com (and the like) testamonials don't hack it here.

I am a BIG ayahuasca fan and it matters to me that people have the best information currently available to ensure the safest, most productive and pleasurable experiences possible.

I have personally experienced the 'cheese syndrome' a few times while using deprenyl and moclobemide.  Believe me, laying in bed and trying to be calm and stop your heart from pounding with visions of heart attack, stroke and aneurysm bouncing around in your head ain't no fun.

I am hoping that some good information will prevent that scary, helpless terror from happening to you.

Eon

Addendum:  I changed the title to reflect the reality that this thread is primarily dedicated to the effects of harmine, harmaline and THH.  While I would be glad to discuss moclobemide or deprenyl, I doubt if anyone is interested.  Perhaps the depression thread would be the place to discuss moclobemide since it is a very effective antidepressant.  ~e
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 09:37:07 PM by Eon T McKnight »

fallout330

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Re: MAO & MAOIs -- From Scientific, Peer-Reviewed Sources
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2010, 10:03:04 PM »
Thanks Eon.  I really would to avoid any experience such as yours! 

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: Harmalas, MAO & MAOIs
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2010, 09:58:25 PM »
Here is an article that says that harmine "potentiated the pressor responses to tyramine" in dogs.  'Pressor' refers to an increase in blood pressure.  The MAOI cheese syndrome is caused by this mechansism.

This is ample evidence that harmine and tyramine containing foods should not be mixed.  One should wait at least 30 minutes after eating tyramine containing foods before taking harmine.

Exactly how long after taking harmine and/or harmaline should one wait before consuming tyramine containing foods has yet to be determined.  The amount of time will most certainly be dose dependent.  It is conceivable that a 500mg or 1g dose of harmine could still be inhibiting MAO in the gut 12 or even 24 hours later.

Since we are not dogs (at least most of us) we cannot be 100% sure that 100% of the findings below apply to us.  Being as we are both mamals, the experiment probably does apply, though.

Having more such experimental evidence would be needed to totally convince me that harmine + tyramine is dangerous for H. sapiens var ayahuascero (I am only about 99.99% convinced at present).  However, this experiment plus other information regarding MAOIs and the cheese syndrome are definitely sufficient to prevent me from consuming tyramine containing foods within 8 hours of doses of harmine and/or harmaline that are less than 500mg.

Momma didn't raise no dummy!    ~eon


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T99-4779786-125&_user=443835&_coverDate=06%2F30%2F1966&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1322570405&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000020958&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=443835&md5=23301d0fbe74dc9557411fe324b6d016

The effects of harmine and tranylcypromine on the pressor responses to biogenic amines in the reserpine-pretreated dog

John N. Eble and Allan Rudzik

Pharmacology Department, Human Health Research Laboratories The Dow Chemical Company, Zionsville, Indiana, USA
Received 18 March 1966;
revised 25 April 1966.
Available online 15 November 2002.

Abstract

Both monoamine oxidase inhibitors, harmine and tranylcypromine, potentiated the pressor responses to tryptamine in the reserpine-pretreated dog and had little effect on the pressor responses to norepinephrine. Whereas harmine also potentiated the pressor responses to tyramine, tranylcypromine was found to be antagonistic to tyImage amine. It is suggested that the block of tyramine by tranylcypromine in the reserpine-pretreated dog is the result of the amphetamine-like activity of tranylcypromine.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 10:14:48 PM by Eon T McKnight »

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: Harmalas, MAO & MAOIs
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2010, 01:23:07 PM »
Here is some info on RIMAs with respect to pressor effects caused by tyramine.  While RIMAs are safer than the older irreversible MAOIs, they still "potentiated the intravenous tyramine pressor effect"  --  i.e they raised blood pressure when tyramine was introduced.

If the dose of any known MAOI is high enough, it will potentiate the pressor effect of tyramine.  This is due to the fact that all currently known MAOIs are not 100% selective for MAO-A or MAO-B.

Hence, it is definitely unwise to mix ayahuasca, harmine and/or harmaline with foods containing tyramine and with psychiatric drugs (e.g. SSRIs) that increase levels of serotonin.

To be safe, NO - NONE - ZERO psychiatric drugs should be combined with ayahuasca/harmine/harmaline/MAOIs.

Hoping you all remain safe and not sorry!

ET

BTW  --  If anyone can get the full text of this or other abstracts, please do so and share.  ~e


http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120813029/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Relationship between tyramine potentiation and monoamine oxidase (MAO) inhibition: comparison between moclobemide and other MAO inhibitors

R. Zimmer, Pharma Clinical Research, F. Hoffmann-La Roche, Basle, Switzerland.  Correspondence to   2 Pharma Clinical Research, F. Hoffmann-La Roche, CH-4002 Basle, Switzerland, Copyright 1990 Blackwell Publishing Ltd

KEYWORDS  --  antidepressant • monoamine oxidase (MAO) inhibitor • pharmacodynamics • tyramine pressor test

ABSTRACT

The pharmacodynamic properties of moclobemide, a reversible inhibitor of MAO-A (RIMA), were compared with the properties of other reversible as well as older irreversible MAO inhibitors in human subjects. All the substances supposed to have MAO-A-inhibitory activity, with the exception of toloxatone, were shown by the decrease in plasma DHPG or MHPG levels to cause inhibition ranging between 50% and 85%. Toloxatone and low doses of deprenyl (a MAO-B inhibitor) caused 20% and 17% inhibition respectively; higher doses of deprenyl, however, strongly inhibited MAO-A. MAO-B inhibition was confirmed for all nonselective and selective MAO-B inhibitors. Moclobemide and clorgyline were found to be the most highly selective MAO-A inhibitors, although both also inhibited 30% of platelet MAO-B activity. Potentiation of the tyramine pressor effect is mainly influenced by the irreversibility and degree of MAO-A inhibition. Tyramine sensitivity was raised (a factor of 10–30) by all irreversible MAO inhibitors in doses inhibiting MAO-A; it diminished with increasing reversibility. In therapeutic doses, moclobemide potentiated the intravenous tyramine pressor effect 3 times less than the old irreversible MAO inhibitors; with the highest therapeutic dose, the tyramine sensitivity factor for moclobemide is only one-seventh to one-tenth that of tranylcypromine or phenelzine. Duration of action is obviously also closely related to the reversibility of inhibition: it ranged from up to 2 days with high doses of moclobemide to 3 weeks with tranylcypromine; clorgyline and phenelzine have been shown to maintain their action for several months. The new generation of RIMAs represents a significant progress in safety. Among the RIMAs having significant pharmacodynamic activity, moclobemide appears to be the safest, the most selective and the most readily reversible.

fallout330

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Re: Harmalas, MAO & MAOIs
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2010, 04:57:26 PM »
Thanks for the updated info Eon.  I'm gonna play it on the safe side if I ever decide to go the Aya or Harmaline path.