Author Topic: Testosterone Theory of Iboga  (Read 8349 times)

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Offline RhythmSpring

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Testosterone Theory of Iboga
« on: October 11, 2013, 10:06:22 AM »
I have a theory... that taking Iboga induces a rise in free testosterone in the body. Can anyone verify this? I'd like to see people testing their blood for testosterone before and after trips to see if there's any difference.

My reasoning? It just seems that the mental state following Iboga--that of clarity, groundedness, peace and self-esteem--is characteristic of a healthy level of testosterone; and one's mental state before Iboga--sort of the opposite of the abovementioned feelings, including addiction, which drive people to take Iboga--is characteristic of low testosterone.

Thoughts? Blood tests?

Offline DiamondHeart

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Re: Testosterone Theory of Iboga
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2013, 10:43:11 PM »
My guess is that there is any number of biochemical changes that occur after taking iboga but that these are at best secondary to the change in our consciousness as a result of our encounter with the spirit of the plant. It is human nature to try and find a rational explanation for the after effects of plant medicines but honestly, I think that approach belittles the true power of the plant. To me its like seeing a beautiful sunset then asking if the level of smog in the air was responsible for it rather than thanking the sun! The smog may affect the color to some extent but it was the work of the sun and the earth, not the smog.

Even if your theory is true, there is no way to prove that the increased concentration is significant enough or lasts long enough to be the major catalyst/reason for the improved mental state as we have an individual sensitivity to our hormones - what's high for one person is low for another. Some guys get very aggressive when their testosterone levels increase ….. ! I experience cycles of this sense of well being after micro dosing long after I've stopped taking it. How would your theory explain that? What is the effect of  the slow release of noribogaine on various receptors in the brain? When you are healed of what is causing you emotional and/or physical pain, wouldn't the normal state of mind be one of peace and well being?

I have been reading The Hummingbird's Journey to God. There is a passage where a shaman is talking about San Pedro but it applies to all plant medicines - it reflects my view on scientific explanations.

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I sometimes get asked things like this, mostly by scientists and academics. They want to know what the 'make up' of San Pedro is, what its 'active ingredients' are and 'how it works'. I tell them I don't know and I don't care, because for me it is not the 'mescaline content' or its 'properties' that are most important. San Pedro is a healing spirit that produces miracles.

Part of the disease itself, it seems to me, is the need to 'know' and to explain the world in terms of its 'mechanisms', when its nuts and bolts really don't matter at all. It is the beauty of the world that should attract, engage,and inspire us.

Offline RhythmSpring

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Re: Testosterone Theory of Iboga
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2013, 12:09:52 AM »
My guess is that there is any number of biochemical changes that occur after taking iboga but that these are at best secondary to the change in our consciousness as a result of our encounter with the spirit of the plant. [/font][/b]

Is not the state of our consciousness intimately tied with our biochemistry? I don't believe that consciousness itself arises from matter, but I do believe it is colored and filtered through our neurochemistry and hormones. I am not saying our state is caused by our bodies, nor the other way around. I am saying that it is an incredibly intimate and mysterious dance. I do not aim to reduce these deeply spiritual matters to simple matter. But I think it's useful to make connections to it.

I'm not looking for reasons, I'm looking for correlations.

I would argue that there IS a way to prove it: just measure levels before and after the flood.

The idea that people get aggressive when they take testosterone is largely a myth. Low serotonin is associated with aggression. High testosterone is actually associated with feelings of well-being. (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091208132241.htm , http://men.webmd.com/news/20031111/dont-blame-testosterone-for-aggression)


Although I agree wholeheartedly with the Hummingbird's sentiment. I find that I am healthiest when I'm not focusing on my health. But it is a dance. Am I healthy because I'm not focusing on the nuts and bolts, or am I not focusing on the nuts and bolts because I am finally healthy?

Either way, it is a dance. I think maybe the purpose of raising the testosterone question is to appeal to those diagnosed with low testosterone, or to appeal to the scientific community to show Iboga's medical power. Perhaps it won't be scheduled and repressed if we can prove that it has such medical benefit as raising testosterone?

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Re: Testosterone Theory of Iboga
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2013, 07:03:39 PM »
I really like this theory!  I believe it is true on a spiritual level, just like Iboga makes us more African in my experience.  It's hard to explain and probably can't but just to say this resonates very well with me.  Thanks!

Offline frequentChi

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Re: Testosterone Theory of Iboga
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2013, 09:26:09 PM »
This thread is rasing some curiosity in me because I'm about to flood for the first time and I'm on testosterone replsment therapy. I wondering.     If its something I have to be concerned about because I'm usually loosing a lot of energy from my meds so I end up taking more test to combat it. Anyone have any knowledge about the effects of ibogaine with a person on TRT.
The equal of a person is not the mistakes they make in life but rather the decisions they make in times of hardship and controversy.

Offline RhythmSpring

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Re: Testosterone Theory of Iboga
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2013, 10:08:24 AM »
I don't have any definitive knowledge, but I have a hunch that if you take TRT while on Iboga, Iboga will not heal your testosterone deficiency--because your body will appear fine!. But if you take Iboga while not on TRT, Iboga will encourage your body to right itself, testosterone deficiency and all.

Offline axl617

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Re: Testosterone Theory of Iboga
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2013, 10:15:17 PM »
I had a bloodtest done for testosterone levels while under the influence of a tiny dose of ibogaine and my result that time was indeed at its highest by about +2ng/ml. I had another test recently and am waiting for results, I haven't touched any drugs since about 3-4 months ago when I took ibogaine, so will see.

Offline surfingisfun001

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Re: Testosterone Theory of Iboga
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2013, 11:05:05 PM »
Someone correct me if I am wrong but I believe Iboga is said to be the father (masculine) of all plant medicine. 

Offline RhythmSpring

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Re: Testosterone Theory of Iboga
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2013, 05:49:40 PM »
Hehe, you are correct. See? It makes sense.

Offline yohimb223

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Re: Testosterone Theory of Iboga
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2013, 11:58:46 PM »
I agree rythym....eboka has a rock solid history of being an aphrodisiac used since antiquity, maybe it does work via testosterone, freeing it up and/or increasing levels.

Offline Bancopuma

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Re: Testosterone Theory of Iboga
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2013, 07:32:08 PM »
It think this is definitely interesting speculation. This could be linked to its aphrodisiac effects, and according to Erowid:

1989 Ibogaine added to the list of "doping substances" banned by the International Olympic Committee.

Goutarel R, Gollnhofer O, Sillans R. "Pharmacodynamics And Therapeutic Applications Of Iboga and Ibogaine". Psychedelic Monographs and Essays #6. Ed. Thomas Little. PM & E Publishing Group, 1993. 70-111.

Which is interesting. I can understand how it could be used as a performance enhancing drug for delaying fatigue, and it is used for hunting and other things requiring endurance in central Africa. But it would be really interesting to if, and to what extent it affects hormone levels.

Offline skinny

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Re: Testosterone Theory of Iboga
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2013, 01:44:49 PM »
I have a theory... that taking Iboga induces a rise in free testosterone in the body. Can anyone verify this? I'd like to see people testing their blood for testosterone before and after trips to see if there's any difference.

My reasoning? It just seems that the mental state following Iboga--that of clarity, groundedness, peace and self-esteem--is characteristic of a healthy level of testosterone; and one's mental state before Iboga--sort of the opposite of the abovementioned feelings, including addiction, which drive people to take Iboga--is characteristic of low testosterone.

Thoughts? Blood tests?

Hunches, maybes, don't make it so.  You need to confirm your hypotheses with science, otherwise it's just someone's conjecture.  The word "theory" in science means a hypothesis that has been tested rigorously and has strong supporting evidence.  Not trying to be nitpicky, but I understand that most people say "theory" when it's "hypothesis" that they mean.  Anyways yeah...its a good idea to test....

If you want to test your hypothesis on an individual basis, you can at least do a Male Hormone blood test.  It's gonna run you at least $300 in a private clinic, or if you have good insurance it will cover the costs associated with the test.  These days you can have your blood drawn at a local laboratory, have it Fedexed to a laboratory like Life Extension and get the results back.

Getting the results and interpreting the data is another matter to itself.  You need a qualified doctor for that, or do a bunch of reading yourself to make an educated interpretation.

I have no commercial interest with LEF; just doing this for research and education purposes.  If you can find a cheaper or more effective way, more power to ya:

Quote

Male Comprehensive Hormone Panel
http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/ItemLC100010/Male-Comprehensive-Hormone-Panel-Blood-Test.html

* Chemistry panel (complete metabolic panel with lipids)
* CBC
* DHEA-S
* DHT
* Estradiol
* PSA
* Pregnenolone
* Total and Free Testosterone
* Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG)
* TSH
* Free T3

Sample report:
http://www.lef.org/pdf/BloodTestSamples/Male_Comprehensive_Hormone_Panel.pdf

skinny


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Offline RhythmSpring

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Re: Testosterone Theory of Iboga
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2013, 01:40:19 AM »
A bit too nitpicky if you ask me. Fine, it's a hypothesis. Whatever. I'm clearly not asserting this as fact.

Anyway, I'm not doing Iboga any time soon, so I'm not going to do this blood test. But thanks for making this one available; and I'm sure there are others if you just ask your doctor.

Offline skinny

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Re: Testosterone Theory of Iboga
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2013, 11:08:23 PM »
A bit too nitpicky if you ask me. Fine, it's a hypothesis. Whatever. I'm clearly not asserting this as fact.

Anyway, I'm not doing Iboga any time soon, so I'm not going to do this blood test. But thanks for making this one available; and I'm sure there are others if you just ask your doctor.

If you want to know something as a fact, you must confirm it by science.  Otherwise it is just your opinion.

And if you don't do a blood test, how do you know for sure whether iboga raises testosterone?  ... magical thinking?

There's a reason why I was being nitpicky.  Science takes hard work, it's relatively easy to eat iboga and come up with ideas (anecdotes and conjectures), but to prove it objectively takes science.

Carl Sagan had something important to say about this in The Bullshit Detection Kit.

skinny

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Offline lalababa

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Re: Testosterone Theory of Iboga
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2013, 05:37:47 AM »
skinny,

most of us here aren't scientists.. just regular folks sharing ideas.  That is what this forum is about.  If there is science to back these ideas up, great..if not, then maybe sharing out ideas will lead to it somehow.. so chill out, please?

lala