Topic: Invitation to the entheogens and other healing arts

[Calaquendi]

Post in this thread about any entheogenic experiences, ideas etc...soon enough this forum will expand a bit to accommodate the growth we're undergoing...I like diversification!

Of particular interest are healing plants, fungi, and cacti - ayahuasca brews, kambo...any and all plant healing ideas, stories and comments. Love to hear some!

BTW - this needn't be limited to entheogens per se, things like sweat lodges and retreats would fit in nicely!

[Eon T McKnight]

Dear Fellow Investigators & Faithful Companion Igor:

While I am, as yet, unable to offer any first hand Eboka information, I just may be able to contribute something worthwhile to this particular topic.

My current research into curing my own anxiety and depression has led me to experiment with chrysin, a naturally occurring flavone closely related to quercetin.  Like quercetin, chrysin is an antioxidant.  Unlike quercetin, it is an aromatase inhibitor and is used by body builders to limit the conversion of testosterone to estrogens.  Also unique is its ability to act as a partial agonist of the benzodiazepene receptors like valium.  Unlike valium, however, it does not cause respiratory depression and drowsiness.

I have been using it as an anxiolytic with good results.

Here's the interesting part wrt entheogenics:  it is also an MAOI.

Hence, it may be able to prevent the deactivation of DMT in the gut, as do the harmala alkaloids.  It may also be able to prolong the effects of DMT in neural tissue, as do the harmala alkaloids.

Given chrysin's anxiolytic action, it could just be the most fantastically colorful and peaceful experience ever...  

Or not.  

Due to its one significant drawback, poor absorption in the gut, I plan to orally ingest 2 g of chrysin in the morning, to build up a significant serum level.  Then, several hours later, I plan to ingest another 2 g of chrysin along with an extract of M. tenuiflora that contains approximately 100 mg of actives.

My lab notes will probably appear here Sunday or Monday.

Let us now hasten to the tower laboratory, mine trusty Igor!   (Bwa-ha-ha!)

Dr. ET McKnight, PhD Guerrilla NeuroPharmacology

[fallout330]

Interesting Eon, never head of this one.  Would be interested to hear your experience with it.  One study that I looked at didn't show any aromatase inhibitor action(http://tinyurl.com/ydgj95d), but it does sound like there may be possible benefits with anxiety issues.

Thanks Eon

[Calaquendi]

Hey McKnight -

I like your style...but if I am reading you correctly, this sounds like an 'ad hoc'  version of pharmahuasca, yes? You know I'm all about DMT my friend, I think the stuff is magic and there's nothing like it in the whole wide world. But I am not familiar with the MAOI you've chosen. Chrysin - from a glancing review- it seems to look like a good and safe anxiolytic but from my limited reading there seems a bit of inconsistency regarding the published documentation. For instance some sources say there are no in vivo data to show/prove some of the qualities suggested BUT the in vitro studies are however very promising...? We need a lab rat.

Usually, I volunteer for this assignment, but alas, I am on a personal hiatus from psychedelics, probably not a very long one, yet I must go through these little slices of sanity at times.

What about taking the 2g chrysin with a staggered dose of THH - this will surely provide the requisite MAOI for the extract to be effective? How potent of an MAOI is chrysin, how long will it inhibit?  THH will certainly do the trick, but I hear you looking in to this other stuff - frankly I think it's pretty damned smart, especially if it acts as a partial agonist on those receptors - this may be something? You might be on to something my good Mad scientist. The down side, so far as my limited understanding will allow is that since chrysin purportedly acts as a partial agonist in this way, maybe it somehow 'messes' with GABA and that whole system. I know that benzos work (in part) this way. So there have been times where I have smoked DMT while on xanax, or valium and the results were less than spectacular. This topic came up on another forum - people wondering if there was any way to mitigate the 'pre-jitters' many folks experience before they smoke the spice (kinda like staring down the barrel of a howitzer) and it was suggested to try small amounts of a benzo. Reports came back that were uniformly lackluster, and it was suggested this was due to the benzos acting on this GABA 'system' in a way similar to alcohol. I know I can't 'get off' if I have been drinking...I don't know brother, I love the way your brain works though. You remind me of..well, ME.

Forgive my uneducated hypotheses I don't have the time to dig further right now, but you've brought up some real interesting  things here, and I'm anxious to see how it turns out. Also noteworthy is that chrysin comes from a passionflower extract and doesn't this family contain some iboga-like alkaloids as well?? (passiflora)? I could be wrong...if I. am, write it on your calendar please - who knows when this phenomenon will recur? HAHA

Good luck young Skywalker, may the Force be with you...

[Eon T McKnight]

The chrysin-DMT combo is certainly pharmahuasca inspired.  Should the term 'pharmahuasca' be stretched to include DMT plus any MAOI?  Or, is there a new term gestating?

Not seeing any in-vivo data re: chrysin's anxiolytic properties, I decided to check it out myself.  Being both the experimenter and the subject make doing a double-blind, placebo controlled experiment a tad tricky.  Despite my well developed powers of denial and self-deceit, I was just too anxious to wait and started gobbling pills instead.  Chrysin did indeed seem to reduce my anxiety.

As for the lab rat, my long time associate and alter ego, Igor, graciously offered to be the first victim subject, but a few quick taps upside his head with a baseball bat convinced him otherwise.  He's such a rascal!

There are really two experiments here:

1)  Will chrysin's MAOI action prevent the deactivation of DMT in the gut?

And,

2)  Will chrysin's agonism of the benzodiazepene receptors modify the DMT experience?

I expect that the answer to both questions will be "Yes."  Since the benzos out there do reduce the intensity of psychedelic substances, the anxiolytic effects of chrysin may negate its usefulness as an MAOI.  From my limited experience, chrysin is very different from any of the benzos I have tried.  The idea of glorious colors combined with a peaceful, easy feelin' makes the effort needed to find out worthwhile, for me.

Hence, I am planning on taking a substantial dose (~100mg) of DMT to make sure that if there is something there, I will experience it.  Pre-dosing with chrysin will enable it to get to the benzo receptors before the DMT is introduced.  

---> PLEASE NOTE:  100mg orally is a somewhat large dose.  Such a quantity should only be contemplated after the effects of smaller doses are well known.  40mg is a much more reasonable place to start.  <---

If interesting results are found, dosing chrysin and DMT at the same time could be done to separate any/most benzo effects and give more information on chrysin's MAOI effects.  Chrysin does not cause nausea and might be a way for those who are fearful of la purga to experience ayahuasca-like visions.

The chrysin has arrived.  Should have an update in a day or so...       ~e

[Eon T McKnight]

Here's the scoop:  Took 1g chrysin orally at 11:00 AM, 1:00, 3:00 and 4:00 PM.  The 1:00 PM dose was followed closely by a big bowl of hot oatmeal to improve absorption.  At 4:15 PM, ingested 1g of Mimosa extract containing ~10% actives.

At 5:30 PM I started to experience a mild, medium frequency tinnitus and felt a sort of 'pressure' (~tension) in my head, located between my ears.  It was not a headache, nor was it uncomfortable.  I probably would have missed both the tinnitus and pressure had my attention been directed somewhere other than the silent observation mode of my physical and mental state.  There may have been slight elevations in my pulse and BP.  Since the elevations were slight and I had no baseline, I didn't bother with measurement.

And that was it.  No other effects were noticed.  No visuals or cognitive changes.  However, it was somewhat different from taking chrysin by itself.  I do believe that chrysin did act as an MAOI, but its activity at the benzodiazepene receptors negated/eliminated the mental states typically associated with the extract.

I did have a unique experience that is probably worth mentioning.  At 6:30 PM, I had a snack and laid down, not really trying or expecting to fall asleep.  I did fall asleep shortly (6:45?) and had a very interesting dream.  I awoke from the dream about 7:30.

I dreamed that I was laying down and sleeping.  That is, in my dream, I dreamed that I was dreaming  --  having a second dream, a dream within a dream.  In that second dream, I was seeing the bright colors and patterns I associate with the extract.  It seemed as though the images in dream #2 were farther away than those in dream #1.  They were definitely less distinct.

Upon awakening from dream #2 into dream #1, the colors and patterns persisted for a while with my 'dream eyes' open and then gradually faded.  The colors of dream people and objects were much more vivid that typical in my dreams.  I was playing with my kidz and wrapped my daughter, who was sitting in the lotus position, in a thin sheet of vivid purple tin foil.  When I was done, she looked like a giant shiny purple Hershey's Kiss  --  without the pull-tab on top.

I retired about 11:00 PM and next morning when I awoke, I felt refreshed and clear with no residual pressure in my head or tinnitus.

The next experiment I am planning is to not preload with chrysin, but to ingest 1g chrysin 15 min before the extract.  Given the sluggish absorption of chrysin, I am expecting to experience the visual effects associated with the extract.  A smaller dose of extract, probably 800 mg (80mg actives) is planned.

~ ET

[fallout330]

Interesting experience Eon, would like to continue hearing more!  Looks like you'll be the next Alexander Shulgin in no time!

[Eon T McKnight]

Well, live and learn, as they say.  Took 1.5 g chrysin and 1 g extract 15 minutes later.  Nothing.  Zip.  Zilch.  Nada.

Either chrysin is a very weak MAOI or its lack of solubility is the culprit.

Igor was heartbroken, but he'll get over it...

ET

[fallout330]

Igor must continue his search.......thanks for the experience

[Eon T McKnight]

Best hard-core info on Cannabis Alchemy that I have found on the web:

     http://www.rexresearch.com/hhusb/hh6thc.htm

Top me off with a quart of that oil any day, Ray!    ~eon

[Eon T McKnight]

The following two books have my very highest recommendation.  Ten stars out of a possible five.  They well written and read like an adventure novel.  IMO they are also, for the most part, absolutely true.

Both fit nicely in the entheogen and healing categories.  I have read both several times, and their current message to me is that a master can discern between 'personal' visions and objective, accurate visions.  To heal, it is necessary to have objective, accurate, true vision.

     "Wizard of the Upper Amazon, The Story of Manuel Cordova-Rios"  by F Bruce Lamb.  ISBN 0-938190-80-6

     "Rio Tigre and Beyond, The Amazon Jungle Medicine of Manuel Cordova-Rios" by F Bruce Lamb  ISBN 0-938190-59-8

~et

[fallout330]

They sound interesting Eon, thanks for the info!

[Eon T McKnight]

Had an interesting experience last night that pertains to the investigation of the combination of chrysin and mimohuasca.  It was totally unintentional, but provided some interesting data.

I had taken two to three grams of chrysin during the day for anxiety, the last one gram dose being taken about 3:00 PM.  At 8:15 PM I took a dose of harmalas:  ~130 mg harmine, 30mg harmaline and 130 mg THH.  For me, it is a threshold entheogenic dose engineered for the best (most pleasant and rewarding) level that provides adequate MAO inhibition.

I sat down at my computer to check email, etc. and didn't notice the time until an hour later (usually, I follow the harmalas 15 minutes later with the extract.)  At 9:15 I took 1 g of extract, equivalent to around 100 mg of actives.  That amount is a good strong dose, not heroic, but substantial.

The tannic acid salts in the extract take quite a while to enter the system, about 1:15 hours, with a peak of the experience coming at about 2:00 hours that plateaus for about 1:00 hour and then gradually descends for another hour.  Very slow and gradual.

While at the 2 hour mark, I had a slight difficulty reading and objects seemed glowey and had a non-ordinary presence, at no time did I get significant eyes-open effects.  Eyes closed was very interesting, but not close to vivid or in any way intense or overpowering.  It was like I had only done half the amount of extract, ~400 mg (~40 - 50 mg actives).

It may be that the relatively low dose of harmalas had not been enough to maintain the MAOI effect for 2 hours.  This could be determined fairly easily by repeating the experiment but using the extract 15 minutes later, as I usually do.  Though I have previously waited 45 minutes between doses without apparent loss of potency.

I did get some good work done.  I dealt with the source of my anxiety and created an 'imaginary helper' within myself to monitor and mediate my anxiety.  I would go back and forth between reading about Zen and dealing with my issues with eyes closed.

When it appeared that I was not going to experience the full effects of the dose, it did not take long to come up with the probable reason why:  chrysin.

It is my theory that the chrysin reduced the visual phenomena by about 50%.  It seemed as though the harmala content was unaffected.  I had some very vivid thoughts and some ataxia and visual flashes while walking, about what I would expect for me at that dosage.

Why I am bringing this up, aside from continuing my account of the nature of chrysin, is for possible use in conjunction with Eboka.

Some people come to the Eboka session in fear, and do not want to have any visions at all.  They just want to get off the junk, period.  I have seen numerous accounts of the use of benzodiazepenes to reduce anxiety and the visionary experience.  Chrysin may do the same, without causing respiratory depression and the fogginess attendant with the benzos.

Since I have never used Eboka, this is just conjecture on my part.

I will be interested in hearing what those with more experience might think.

~eon