Author Topic: IS IBOGA SAFE ?  (Read 14339 times)

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RavAv

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IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« on: June 06, 2010, 07:25:09 AM »
Hello everybody - I see pieces of this in different spots - so let's try to get one thread going.
First off - let's try to stick to facts (and inner guides and wisdom) and not emotions; and ralize that some people are more sensitive and strict since they have seen people die on iboga in front of them.

I think it will be easier if we break the safety issue down to several categories:

1) Pre-existing medical conditions / Medical safety and risk (Heart, liver, etc)
2) In session dangers: Falling, banging head, swallowing one's own throw-up
3) Client's irresponsibility: Taking opiates, alcohol or other drugs while the iboga is in the system
4) The journey: Going too far out, Consciously leaving

I think we can all agree on category 2 and 3 are REAL DANGERS that require a 3rd party to assist / monitor / supervise


Category 1 and 4 - let's open up the discussion. . .

Offline Calaquendi

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2010, 10:56:23 AM »
Pre exisiting medical conditions I believe are the forefront of many of the problems we have encountered with Westerners taking iboga. Many are not aware of these conditions until it is too late. An EKG will only show so much. And many addicts have bad general health.

On the other hand - anecdotal reports suggest iboga/ibogaine has tremendous value as an an antiviral and antibiotic (or pro biotic) as well as generally promoting a homeostasis and good health both physically and mentally.  Is iboga safe? Compared to what? Methadone? UROD? I say you better believe it is. Those deaths we know of come from a combination of factors - mainly congenital cardiac anomalies and the user themselves being irresponsible during or immediately after the session. http://www.myeboga.com/fatalities.html

Many people come to iboga tail in hand - as a last resort. I know I did. I was ready to die trying if it came to that. I think the clinics have it backwards. There's too little emphasis on intuition and 'real' patient care. A heart monitor and other soulless attendants of modern medicine will never go as far as another human being watching over you, holding space for you....these are my opinions Rav, and I've googled my ass off looking at these very questions. The best answers I have come up with are by talking with experienced providers and other ibonuats. Anything can happen, at any time. Precautions are a necessity - and a good thing, no doubt, but if we eliminate or even substitute the essential human factor in any of this, I say the risks increase exponentially. Instinct and intuition. This is as much an art as a science - which is why this argument will always circumnavigate itself.

As to your #4 - this is the one that perplexes me the most. And frankly it frightens me. I have done MANY psychedelics, several of which I thought I had died during the trip. This isn't uncommon - but apparently with iboga, this can happen...for real. Although rare, I have spoken with persons who have known this to happen and it scares me for the addict who is so distraught and unhappy with life, that perhaps if they see a chance to 'escape' they will take it? There are ways of mitigating this I believe: affirmations to the effect of consciously 'deciding' to LIVE  - to tell another person, preferably your sitter 'I want to live' etc...I can't speak from too much experience here, maybe others will chime in. Good thread as usual Rav.

" I am you and what I see is me..."

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2010, 09:01:04 PM »
1)  If one has a heart attack while driving, does that mean driving causes heart attacks?  Certainly the stress of a near-miss or road-rage could precipitate a heart attack in a susceptible person, but it is not a common occurrence.  Someone with a bad heart or liver takes a chance when consuming just about ANY drug, and 10s of thousands die in the US annually as a result of adverse reactions to prescription drugs.

Surely one or two doses of ibogaine are less risky than the ongoing use of opiates and/or stimulants.  In 2000, 17,000 people died from the use of illicit drugs.  We cannot be protected from all risks.

1.5)  [New sub-category] Toxic fatal effects of iboga overdose.

A sufficient amount of ibogaine will kill anyone.  Some require more, some less.  While it is unlikely that many (any?) have done so, ibogaine could be used to commit suicide.

Anyone taking over 30mg/Kg is asking for it just as someone with a bad heart or liver taking over 20mg/kg.  (Just a seat-of-the-pants estimate and does not constitute medical advice!)

4)  This category is questionable since anyone who 'consciously left' is unavailable to verify the cause of death.  Anecdotal tales of adepts indicate that some have indeed chosen to leave the physical body permanently and done so.

IMHO the risk of this happening is vanishingly small.  If one's spirit intentionally/consciously leaves to begin existence elsewhere, is this really a 'risk' or just the natural progression of the soul?

My guess is that most all category 4 deaths are really in category 1) or 1.5) above.   ~et
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 09:03:41 PM by Eon T McKnight »

Offline x

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2010, 11:18:27 PM »
Category 4, I saw that door, a literal door, and I knew what was behind it. I felt like I had help remembering that I had children, and it was the thought of them that had me turn away and on to the next thing Iboga was showing me.
The door was not scary, not intimidating, it was just a choice. I had been suicidal numerous times in my early twenties, about 4 attempts, two very serious ones. (I'm 41, now). So, I have had the desire to die in the past. I also brought to the table a keen curiosity about death, and a true looking forward to finding out 'what's next'. I still have those. Maybe I would have been a real risk if I had a sitter who knew what to ask. But I didn't, and here I am.

One could argue that anything at all could have been behind the door, since I did not open it. Okay.
I also know that when with Iboga, one knows things that cannot be easily explained with science, scientific instruments, or classical logic. "Just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean it's not true." That's me, quoting me. ;)

I ask people to make the conscious choice to live, to say aloud "I want to live", and explain that if they choose to die, there will be very uncomfortable consequences for their families, and for me. Them's the facts, too. There is nothing wrong with choosing to die, imho, I just don't want it to happen during a journey I am a part of. Not part of the deal. ;)

As for screening, I consider it important. I think most folk are healthy enough to go through a journey, but screening is important to catch those who aren't. I don't think many people would be intentionally deceitful about their health, they just may not think to tell you about some things. I have an application with medical questions I require folk to fill out that gets some of those questions answered. I'm also blessed to have an expert who reads the EKGs. For older folk, it's good to have a stress test, too.

I've turned people down based on tests, and instinct, sometimes separate from the test. Just a 'feeling'. And while I hate to disappoint anyone, it's my gut that I've been trusting, trusting most of all, actually. Again, can't put science to that. ;)

T

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2010, 12:46:21 AM »
Tia, just because you do believe it, doesn't mean that it is true.

If people could die just by wishing it, Dr. Kavorkian would never have needed to make his little machine and go to jail.  If it was that easy, those seeking extinction of themselves would not have to put a gun to their heads to end themselves.  It just doesn't work that way.

Ayahuasca is no less powerful than iboga, but no myth about people willing themselves dead surrounds ayahuasca.  Or any other drug, for that matter.  Iboga is no different.  (Massive OD is another matter, I will grant that.)

I personally think that talk about choosing to die and then succeeding while using iboga is a disservice and is counterproductive.  Many people are apprehensive enough about iboga without planting ideas of doom in their minds.  Being frightened only increases the probability of a difficult experience.  A person should be concentrating on the good things that will result when he/she pops that pill.  Remember hearing about 'set and setting'?

While you may have a fascination and preoccupation with the idea, the overwhelming majority of people do not take iboga with the intent of dying.  Have you ever heard of someone taking iboga to commit suicide?  They take it to heal themselves and learn.

People who want to die take a handful of pills, not iboga.  Iboga is inherently life-affirming.  It is medicine.  It is the nature of medicine to heal, not kill.

Just because you believe that that door led to death doesn't mean that it did.  And even if it did lead there, you may have found yourself unable to open it if you tried.

We may think that dying is the best solution, but our souls are wiser than that, I sincerely believe.  I say that the best advice is to listen to your soul.    ~eon

Offline x

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2010, 12:56:22 AM »
Why do I feel like you have it in for me, Eon?

No shame in my game, though, mama doesn't work that way.

I feel like you are trying to antagonize me, and that you have twisted some of the things I've said.
I've noticed from your 'humorous' postings and many comments that you don't seem to care much for women. I think perhaps you focus some of this discomfort onto me.

Like many other times, I will now wander away from this post.

I wish you the best.

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2010, 01:53:05 AM »
Tia, I am saddened that you feel that my words are a personal attack.  The idea that iboga is particularly dangerous is a subject that I feel strongly about.  Perhaps my feelings are being misinterpreted.  My intention was to defend iboga, not to attack you personally.

At least I did not bring up any accusations about your relationship with men.  To me, that would have constituted an unfair attack, having nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Having taken the majority of psychedelics out there, well over 1000 different times, I do believe that I have some useful and knowledgeable things to say about set and setting and how to manage a psychedelic experience.  I have been tripping for more than 40 years, to give you some idea about the extent of my experience.  My first trips were in 1966 on LSD and DMT.

One thing I would definitely NOT do is discuss death or other morbid subjects right before a trip, especially not with a neophyte.  Things done or spoken about right before a trip (anything that day, even) often manifest during the trip.

I have repeatedly heard people talk about how dangerous iboga is and I think it's a lot of bunk.  Such talk can lead to what us old hippies call a "bummer" and only puts iboga in a bad light.  Stressing doom and gloom will never get it legalized.  Magnifying the 'dangers of iboga' only serve those reluctant to kick dope and those with a vested interest in having people dwelling in fear, uncertainty and doubt.

Is iboga safe?  Yes, I truly believe it is, when used properly.

Is it difficult to use iboga properly?  No, it is not.    ~et

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2010, 07:07:07 PM »
4) The journey: Going too far out, Consciously leaving

I find my thoughts keep coming back to this category, so I'm going to put them down here for all to see.  What I am going to say is most certainly going to be way past the credible for some.

To understand this category, it is necessary to understand the mechanics of astral projection (AKA Out of Body Experiences/OBEs).

All people have what has been termed an astral body.  Other related but not necessarily the same terms are dreaming body, spirit and soul.  The astral body usually occupies in the same space as the physical body, but it can become separate.  The ways that the astral body can be separated from the physical body are dreams, drugs, yogic/meditative practice, severe physical trauma and death/near death.  It also rarely happens spontaneously.

Most dreams and visionary drug experiences are not actual astral projection, BTW.

This relates to Category 4 because when one has separated his/her astral body from the physical, simply looking at the unconscious physical body or thinking about it causes the two to rejoin in an instant.  It is like being pulled back into your physical body by a powerful, irresistible force.  It's sort of like being pulled by a giant magnet.

While I have read that through enough training and intense concentration, it is difficult but possible to resist the pull of the physical body, I have never been able to do so.

Until the physical body itself dies, our astral bodies are strongly connected to our physical bodies and only a supremely trained adept/yogin can choose to sever that link  --  the silver umbilical cord from physical to astral.

Yes, it can be done by severe trauma, but in the case of ibogaine and other drugs, that is what is called a fatal overdose (Cat 1.5).  It is not the same as choosing to leave or wandering away.  ODing is having one or more vital systems/organs shut down from toxic causes.

While high doses of ibogaine (over 20mg/kg possibly) could enable some to separate their astral body, it is virtually impossible for an untrained person to 'wander off' or consciously sever the link between their astral and physical bodies.

Lucid dreaming, similarly, requires that the dreamer become aware that he/she is dreaming without thinking about the physical body lying asleep somewhere  --  one of the reasons that it is hard to do.  Otherwise we wake up instantly.

The best way to preserve life is accurate and appropriate dosing, not scaring people with a bunch of BS.

If you want to sell your services to them, sell them on the accuracy and appropriateness of your dosing, not that having you near will prevent their soul from somehow wandering off and getting lost.

I guess that one part of my emotional response to this subject comes from my first iboga experience.  Once I became aware that I was in absolutely NO danger of dying, I got righteously pissed off at all those who had waved the specter of death before my eyes.

So now you all really think I'm wakked-out, right?      ~eon
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 07:19:38 PM by Eon T McKnight »

Offline GratefulDad

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2010, 08:29:45 PM »
The first time I did iboga, was with Sara back in 04, and I didn't read a bunch of stuff about dying or any of that.  I am not even sure the thought crossed my mind, that I might die.  I probably thought more about getting killed on the plane ride to Amsterdam!  

I had an extremely powerful experience, and changed my life.  I am sure you can find my story here, if you haven't heard it.  Anyways, after my injury and relapse, I started paying much more attention to the list again an reading more about the ibogaine developments.  I have to admit there were huge numbers of emails I just deleted without reading, over the years.  I did keep some good scientific stuff, or stuff that sounded new or important.

But as I started back reading more, and started hearing more warnings and stuff about deaths, I must admit I started to worry a bit about the possibility of death.  Again, though, after one more dose, I remembered how gentle iboga was.  I mean it wasn't particularly gentle for me the first time, but I never thought I was gonna die, ever.  Just introducing the thought can cause anxiety, but with proper screening, it should rarely occur.  

I think it can be dangerous treating drug addicts, because drug addicts often have lots of extenuating circumstances.  People should be aware that with medical problems, they should probably think twice before taking iboga, but for otherwise healthy individuals, even those addicted to drugs, it seems really very safe.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 11:58:27 AM by GratefulDad »
GratefulDad

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RavAv

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2010, 11:52:24 AM »
thanks for everybodies great contributions - like i  have aid in other places - i am convinced that iboga is completely safe for a healthy person in a proper dose

fallout330

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2010, 06:31:56 PM »
It seems that if one would take it for Psyco/Spiritual purposes, the risks should be lower, compared when using for detoxing from a substance.  It seems the later would be a bit more harsh.

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2010, 07:55:48 PM »
Agreed, fallout.  The dose does not have to be so high for psycho/spiritual and the people would probably be healthier and stronger to start with.

Also, while it would not fit so well into a 7 - 10 day stay at a clinic, I do not see why opiate detox could not be a series of smaller doses  --  just enough to kill withdrawal  --  repeated maybe weekly over several weeks.  The alkaloids would still build up in the system, and people with less than robust health could be treated more safely.  I seem to recall reading that doses as small as 200mg of HCl will kill withdrawal symptoms for a while.

Fit the treatment to the patient, not the other way around.  Right?

A series of 4 doses worked for my cigarette habit, and I'm betting that it would work well for alcohol and stimulants, too.

Since tolerance to the psychedelic effects builds up with weekly dosing, one could use that to get more iboga into someone with less stress on the mind and body.  Sorta like boring a series of holes in the head instead of breaking the thing wide-open.   :D

Yer Friendly Iconoclast,

ET

fallout330

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2010, 11:48:21 AM »
Very interesting ideas Eon, never considered that.

thanks

Offline GratefulDad

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2010, 05:42:35 PM »
Low doses of iboga helped me just stop smoking cigarettes, out of the blue.  It was a couple days after a booster, that I just stopped buying them.  I have been done ever since.  I am not sure how well that would work for opiate withdrawal, since low doses don't seem to knock it all out, or for all that long.  Perhaps for cocaine, meth, or alcohol, low doses would be more feasible, but for opiate withdrawal, I'd definitely go for a huge flood, then boosters to combat residuals..
GratefulDad

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Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2010, 11:14:32 PM »
OK, Dad.  I am not saying a flood dose isn't the best for a young, healthy person who is hooked on opiates.

But what if you were a 60 year old woman with Hep C and a bad heart and a methadone habit?

Maybe a better question for this topic would be:  "What if you knew a 60 year old woman with Hep C and a bad heart and a methadone habit that came to you asking for iboga treatment?"

My thinking is that she could be treated with iboga, if it was done gently and carefully.

I look forward to your (ALL youse guys and gals) thoughts on the subject.  Never having treated anyone but myself, I really don't know the answer.

eon
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 11:18:59 PM by Eon T McKnight »