Author Topic: IS IBOGA SAFE ?  (Read 14596 times)

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fallout330

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2010, 11:24:24 PM »
That sounds like a tough one Eon, I certainly would be nervous treating someone in that condition, but only one with experience can really say, I wonder.

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2010, 11:44:57 PM »
Might be a good question for Eric, no?   ~e

Offline GratefulDad

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2010, 01:14:13 AM »
Well, I imagine Sara would give it a shot, and we had talked about dosing slow over a longer period.  She was the one who told me she only does that in special circumstances, but that it can also be successful.  I just don't know all the ins and outs, but am pretty sure it could be done.
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Offline Calaquendi

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2010, 08:37:58 PM »
Eon- while I do not disagree that iboga is 'less powerful' than Yage, I do disagree with your contention that people cannot 'choose' to 'leave' during an episode. Shamans warn of this (with iboga) you are not to open/go through certain doors when you see them, unless the shaman/guide is aware of where you are during the trip -and they usually can tell exactly what's going on and when by observing the initiate. This is where science ultimately fails us. I will dig up some data on what I'm talking about (I know you'll want it  ;D) but this subject has been discussed by the most experienced providers around. It is NOT addressed (to my uncertain knowledge) in the clinical settings -which could account for some of the 'mysterious' deaths loosely associated with this medicine.

I am speaking from a purely shamanic perspective here - we have no instruments to measure such things - there will be no science to back this up, but I do believe it can happen. And I am not alone. Does this make iboga 'more' dangerous than other things? I guess it depends on perspective. I was warned about this by the provider I respect most in this world - pre-session...it freaked me out, but  was also glad to be appraised of the 'possibility'.

I understand your points about speaking of such things to the neophyte. It could cause undue alarm perhaps, or even make someone who needs this choose to back away from the experience. Nobody wants that. We are talking about a unique medicine here, no matter what or how much else it has in common with other entheogens, it is (IMO) peerless and exclusive in its own right. This would follow that certain attributes of it will also be unique and exclusive...We could be talking about folklore here - indigenous beliefs go deep in the psyches of these people...and if one believes something is true, it IS true...for them, at the very least. Here's an example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unexplained_death_syndrome

Other cultures have almost identical beliefs though the specific circumstances are attributed to different antagonists. What I am saying is that more experienced people than either of us lend at least SOME credibility to this, shouldn't we at least entertain the possibility?

You're also right about the person who supposedly underwent this phenomenon not being here to to well, be 'interviewed' by us. Substantiating this will be impossible. But there are cases where young, healthy people were attended by physicians (plural) and were unsuccessfully resuscitated...yes this could be ANYTHING, but anything includes this phenomenon - or at least, it could.

I guess the ultimate and correct question to this particular isn't "is iboga safe" but...are YOU safe? I'll look for the data on this, I have some somewhere in this messy machine, and perhaps we can continue this. Maybe it does all boil down to belief...maybe we should create a new thread concerning 'belief' and its manifestations and phenomena - particularly where iboga (or religion/shamanism) is concerned.

PS> I read somewhere that certain hospitals stopped giving Catholic last rites to certain patients (ones who were not necessarily 'at death's door) because the thinking here was that to do so would 'allow' these persons to, well...'leave' where they may not have were these sacraments not given in the first place. Interesting theory.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 08:40:47 PM by calaquendi »
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Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2010, 02:16:45 PM »
I am not saying that people CANNOT will themselves dead, I am saying that for a healthy person to do so would require training and skills possessed by maybe a dozen people alive today on the entire earth, plus some really strong determination.  How come you don't 'get lost' and never wake up when dreaming every night? This death and danger stuff reminds me of the 'old wives tale' that peyote fuzz contains strychnine.

When a marriage partner of many years has died, the survivor often loses the 'will to live' and does indeed die  --  we have all seen that.  Just let me point out that it usually takes 2 or more years for a frail, elderly survivor to do so, not a couple of hours.

If I really believed that the odds of dying from a non-toxic therapeutic dose of iboga were significantly greater than those of dying from falling asleep and dreaming, you would never see me back here.  My own 'do no harm' philosophy would prevent me from suggesting that anyone use something likely to harm them.  Doing so would be immoral and irresponsible, in my book.

"The thinking here was that to do so would 'allow' these persons to, well...'leave' " --  another interpretation would be that giving last rites would give patients the impression that they were dying, that there was no hope.  Does giving last rites encourage patients to give up?  Are you encouraging patients to give up by suggesting that they are likely to die while using iboga?  Plus, you're also talking about terminally ill patients who are already on death's door, not healthy individuals taking iboga.

Two of my problems with this subject:  Are we perversely discouraging people from seeking lifesaving treatment by talking about death so much and inaccurately implying that it happens often?  Are we preventing people from getting the full depth and value of the experience because they are too afraid to go deeply into it?

Intense fear has indeed been associated with spontaneous death.  Who would be more likely to die during an eboka session, someone calm, peaceful and confident or someone frightened, scared and in a panic?

IMHO, dwelling on death :  1)  Is counterproductive to the healing process,  2)  Does not lessen the odds of death,  3)  May actually increase the odds of death through fear and anxiety,  4)  May be used to create fear of death for a provider's own personal agenda, not because it is likely.

Talking to a patient about life, love and health before a treatment is way more productive and helpful that being fixated on or obsessed with death.    ~eon
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 02:29:29 PM by Eon T McKnight »

Offline Calaquendi

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2010, 03:23:10 PM »
Quote
Are you encouraging patients to give up by suggesting that they are likely to die while using iboga?


I hope that's a rhetorical question man, I would never take that position personally. I'm the one who started this forum in the first place - if I thought for one second that the risks were so grave and the danger so great that this type of board would actually (indirectly) participate in harming someone (or worse) - I would never have opened it up.

Your points are right on Eon, and I am not disagreeing with you, it just seems an interesting area of discussion that has not been talked much about. I am not creating these theories myself - I was told this by a respected provider before my initial  exposure to this medicine. It surprised me too, and certainly concerned me. But I did like Tia said, told my sitter and others my intentions: I want to LIVE to be healed, whole and happy. This same provider told me that one in 350 people died associated with this treatment (as of that time in 2009) where those numbers were generated is unclear but I assume they could only come from the cumulative and arguably loose statistics kept by the clinics.  Where else are any stats kept? I think that the vast majority of iboga treatments are underground, DIY or 'other' ad hoc clandestine affairs.

My point here is that I DO believe iboga is safe. FAR safer than some would have us believe, but exploring the risks is the only way to help mitigate them. I think that many risks can be eliminated altogether by education and proper administration. It would seem to me that when money is at the top of the priority list - that other more important issues are ignored or at least given less consideration. I found this particular area interesting, and maybe it is 'bullshit' but talking about it isn't condoning 'wive's tales' or scare tactics. If anything - a discussion like this could potentially 'out' some disinformation: sifting through the propaganda to get to the truth. Why would this even be a consideration? Where would such a theory even come from?
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Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2010, 01:52:55 PM »
Are you encouraging patients to give up by suggesting that they are likely to die while using iboga?

Sorry, amigo!  The question was neither rhetorical nor was it intended to be directly aimed at you  --  please pardon my poor wording.

What I should have said "Are patients encouraged to give up and die by hearing suggestions that they are likely to die while using iboga?"

In other words, is all this talk about death contributing to additional deaths?

VERY SERIOUSLY:  A death rate of 1 out of 350 is extremely high.  If that is really the rate, then flood doses of iboga are NOT SAFE, the way I see things.  I seriously doubt if the death rate is greater than 1 in 1000 and probably more like 1 in 10,000.

What are the statistics?  What is the actual rate of death during iboga 'flood-type' treatment?

If it is more than 1 death in every 1000 treatments, I will not be using nor recommending anyone else uses flood doses of iboga again because I consider that rate is excessive and unsafe.

I do not get the impression that it is anywhere near that dangerous, but then, I can hardly be considered average or normal.

What are the numbers?  ~et
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 01:55:16 PM by Eon T McKnight »

Offline GratefulDad

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2010, 03:31:55 PM »
Well, Eon, from the few treatments that we know about, where death has occurred, the numbers might be 1 in 350, but for all those who aren't reporting successes, treatments, or deaths even, there is no way we can really be sure.  Until it becomes legal and more studies and tests are done, we won't get very accurate statistics.  If it's only used by addicts for getting clean, then that might contribute to it's death rate. 

So really, we don't know the numbers, and for me, I don't care.  I mean, I suppose if it seemed dangerous to me, I wouldn't recommend it.  I don't need numbers to tell me how I feel, because I have experience with it.  It doesn't seem too dangerous or scary to me.  I wouldn't be afraid to give it to most of my loved one's if they wanted it.  I believe one of the rules of the website is that you be an adult, to sign up here, and we do have disclaimers.  People do need to be responsible for their choices, and the best we can hope to do is to share all the honest, correct info we can.  The actual numbers of deaths are something we will have very far off, and I do think that just because there was a death in which the person ingested ibogaine, and it is still in their system, doesn't necessarily mean ibogaine was the major contributing factor.

So it might be nice to have some accurate numbers, but I don't think we'll see them any time soon..
GratefulDad

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Offline Calaquendi

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2010, 07:14:52 PM »
I agree GD - and that's too bad, really...these numbers HAD to come from the clinical side of things. This I always found ironic, that God knows how many underground sessions take place - daily even - and we are not aware of any statistics. Impossible to tell for sure. But this person had no reason to lie, and wouldn't have - if anything maybe these numbers are embellished to 'weed out' potential DIY'ers and/or those who are frivolous or careless? I really don't know. Last thing I want to do is scare people or discourage them, I am only repeating what I was told. I was shocked, believe me, shocked and frankly afraid. But I was more afraid of doing nothing and killing myself with drugs...Another point made by GD is that about people doing this to quit hardcore drugs: when I spoke with this provider who gave me the info I said that I believed that at least half of those numbers could have (and probably did) come from the 'patients' themselves...meaning that careless and irresponsible behavior -like taking other contraindicated drugs with ibogaine, were likely the cause of some of these reported incidents. He agreed wholeheartedly. To my uncertain knowledge not a single case has been formally pinned on ibogaine solely and this is important to understand. I do not want this thread to get out of hand, or people to come away from it with serious doubts - my own opinion is that this stuff is as safe as anything else. I'd call it as safe as or safer than any of the Rx's folks are prescribed for depression, and damned sure safer than methadone or injecting heroin. I saw at least a half dozen people younger than myself die at the methadone clinic I was at during a six year period - half a dozen that I knew. There were almost certainly more that I did not know. The vast majority of real risks here can be averted by proper education and research. There are no reasons why we as a community can't further mitigate these risks by such discussions. There are plenty of online resources and many links to be found on this forum to help guide someone through from start to finish - and safely - is iboga a calculated risk? Yes. Is it more of a risk than other forms of treatment (particularly where drug addiction is concerned)? No, I do not think so. Things like UROD (Ultra Rapid Opiate Detox- where the patient is sedated with general anesthesia while narcan is pushed through their system) and methadone are far more dangerous, IMO. Make smart choices, make informed decisions. To summarize, we have so little in the way of hard stats to go on, and user experiences are subjective and anecdotal - yet, to me, this is the best evidence we have. My hope is that one day communities such as this one we're building will serve as a platform for change, or even some kind of legislative reform.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 07:18:17 PM by calaquendi »
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Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2010, 09:43:49 PM »
A drug that kills 1 out of 350 users is far, far deadlier that heroin, crakk or even speedballing.  Deadlier than drinking, driving, shooting H and smoking crakk all at the same time (probably - hehe).

Maybe we have a problem with numbers here.  I received my BS in Mathematics, and numbers speak very precisely to me.  Plus, I have taken a college level course in probability.  Let me tell you, 1:350 are REALLY REALLY REALLY BAD odds for drug fatalities.

Cal, maybe you just got some totally bogus numbers from someone with a darkly vivid imagination and minimal mathematical skills.

e
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 09:51:12 PM by Eon T McKnight »

Offline GratefulDad

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2010, 11:48:41 PM »
Those aren't Cal's numbers..  Those are numbers from a few clinics who treated people.  1 out of 350 we know about, and most of the people who died had other conditions or used right after or with iboga..  How about finding better numbers if that's what you're after.  I mean if you need the numbers to convince you that you are doing something good, well you better search for them. 

Honestly, I am a mean hard ass..  If someone dies, it's the same risk they take every day jumping in their car to drive to work..  Chances you are killed in a car accident are probably higher than dying of ibogaine..  I am not worried if 1 person in 350 recorded cases died.  That by no means tells the story, not even hardly.. 

I say trust your gut, your experience, and your instincts.  If you watch the news all the time you'll see all kinds of death an destruction, after all that's what gets people's attention, not some drug addict who quit.  Who gives a shit about a drug addict other than immediate members of the family or friends?  They aren't gonna run out and report successes as quick as people will run out and report a single death.. 

Believe what you choose.  If you are worried about it, take a step back and evaluate your ideals.  I did it, and you aren't gonna convince me it's dangerous from some statistics..  Follow your heart, man!!
GratefulDad

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Offline GratefulDad

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2010, 12:57:59 AM »
http://myeboga.com/fatalities.html

Ibogaine/iboga (all known treatment episodes [TEs] 1989-2006): 11 fatalities in 3,414 TEs (1 ibogaine-related death/427 TEs)1
Methadone (Australia 2000-2003; national registration data): 282 methadone-related death in 102,615 TEs (1 methadone-related death /364 TEs)2

Methadone (Utah 2004; Controlled substance and medical examiner data bases): 110 fatalities in which medical examiner made mention of methadone in attribution of cause of death, 52,350 methadone prescriptions (1 methadone-related death /476 methadone prescriptions)3
1. Alper, K.R., Lotsof, H.S. and Kaplan, C.D., (2008). The ibogaine medical subculture. Journal of Ethnopharmacology 115, 9-24.
2. Gibson, A.E. and Degenhardt, L.J., (2007). Mortality related to pharmacotherapies for opioid dependence: a comparative analysis of coronial records. Drug and Alcohol Review 26, 405-410.
3. Sims SA, Snow LA, Porucznik CA (2007): Surveillance of methadone-related adverse drug events using multiple public health data sources. Journal of Biomedical Informatics 40:382-389.
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RavAv

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2010, 10:44:07 AM »
I'll start by saying as the person who started this thread
that my goal was to hear various ideas -
not to come to a legal or medical conclusion.

When i am contacted by a person considering iboga
i ask them to first read my website and at least of the few of the links first,
and then to contact me again
If and when they contact me again,
I tell them they will need to get an EKG and blood check for the liver
"as iboga is  not 100% safe"
If and when they arrive fora session,

I believe my original 4 categories must be subdivided into two:
addicts and therapy cases -
flood doses for addicts are definitely more complex than treatment for therapy issues,
which often does not even require a full flood dose


« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 03:34:52 PM by VaVar »

RavAv

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2010, 11:02:38 AM »
As for the numbers - I am not an expert
but can only share my limited opinion.
Virtually every site and link and center - all use the figure of 1/300 as the mortality rate
I personally find this figure hard to believe - yet have no hard statistics to challenge these figures

If I may indulge - I can play around for a minute with some hypothetical figures:

Let us say that Howard, Sarah, Boaz, Dr Nash, Rocky and Claire have each treated around 500 people
that makes up for 3000 treatments
if we say 10 other providers each treated 100 people - that's another 1000
if we add another 1000 treatments with providers we are up to 5000 supervised sessions
let's even double that figure and add 5000 people who have taken iboga on there own
and we have 10,000 iboga sessions (not counting gabon, etc)
as iboga is not recreational and not so well known
I am comforatble with this figure, but would not argue with anyone who said it is too high (no pun intended).

Switching to deaths - I have been able to track down about 15 certified deaths "iboga related"
even if i do not add any other deaths
of which i am sure there are
we have a rate of 15/10,000 or 1.5 in 1000 or .5/333

even if we say that there are 20,000 cases of iboga use and 5 more deaths that we do not know about
and i am sure that there at least 20 deaths,
and not truly 20,000 iboga uses
we have a figure of 20/20,000
or 1/1000
this figure is the fgure i am comfortable with,
alhough honestly i must say that it is probably much higher

excuse my stats if they are off
havn't done math since high shool

Offline Calaquendi

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2010, 03:17:13 PM »
That's honestly the type of math I used, Rav - in my personal decision to undertake iboga for addiction. I was tired of suffering. I let my family know there was a mortality rate loosely associated with this 'experimental' medicine and that I was willing to assume any risks. These numbers are only accurate from a certain perspective - they by no means reflect the totality of the situation. BUT - they are the numbers we have to work with. The rest is speculative and working through hypothesis like you did Rav actually seems pretty accurate to me when you superimpose theory on the 'numbers' we have generated from the clinical side of things. Another possibility is liability for the clinics. They may inflate the risks to mitigate responsibility-this is not a dig on the clinics and is pure speculation.

As far as I am concerned this medicine is safe....VERY safe, and the more research and knowledge one has going into it the safer they will be.
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