Author Topic: IS IBOGA SAFE ?  (Read 14612 times)

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Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2010, 01:02:45 PM »
First, let me say that I have read Mr. Albert's book Amazing Grace and enjoyed it very much.  I also applaud his efforts to educate the public about T. iboga and his willingness to include the scary subject of fatalities on his website.

     http://www.myeboga.com/fatalities.html

The paper that he based that page on can be found here:

     http://encod.org/info/IMG/pdf/ALPER_LOTSOF_AND_KAPLAN_REPORT.pdf

From information on the vox list, there were 5 deaths during the period 2007 - 2009.  The Alper paper suggests that iboga treatment is increasing at a rate of 30% per year.

OUCH!  PLEASE NOTE THAT THERE WERE SEVERAL ERRORS IN MY ORIGINAL FIGURES.  I THINK IT BEST THAT THEY ARE ELIMINATED TO AVOID CONFUSION.  AFTER NUMEROUS SANITY CHECKS, HERE ARE NEW ESTIMATES:

1989 to 2006:  3414 treatments, 11 deaths, yielding 1 death for each 310 treatments.

2007 to 2009:  4124 treatments, 5 deaths, yielding 1 death for each 825 treatments.

1989 to 2009:  7538 treatments, 16 deaths, yielding 1 death for each 471 treatments.

(Please note:  this is just an estimate based upon assumptions and limited data.  The spreadsheet used to derive these estimates is attached.)

Thank you all for your comments and information!

In the state where I live, Wisconsin, I would be charged with murder if I supplied a controlled substance to someone who died from it.

I know someone who is sitting in prison now because he gave his girlfriend an oxy before she got drunk and died.

Peace, Love & Life!    ~et
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 04:19:32 PM by Eon T McKnight »

fallout330

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2010, 01:43:39 PM »
Thanks for bringing this unpleasant reality up in this thread Eon.  I realize the possibility is there and can be unexpected.  Safety and appropriate discretion should be a priority, no doubt.

Thanks

Nganga Nobunoni +

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2010, 01:11:50 AM »
1) Pre-existing medical conditions / Medical safety and risk (Heart, liver, etc)
2) In session dangers: Falling, banging head, swallowing one's own throw-up
3) Client's irresponsibility: Taking opiates, alcohol or other drugs while the iboga is in the system
4) The journey: Going too far out, Consciously leaving

1-3 involves a lot of ground work' for myself' most of this is psychic stuff' once the general medical condition of the person is acertained'
The rest is a process of "Reading" the person' using ones built in bullshit meter and psychic skills gained through Iboga'

The whole expereince must be hands on' as in the "Provider" actualy touching the client' (much can be gained just by touching the client' or feeling the pulse' looking to the aura colours' listening to breathing' looking to psychi to read of conciousess patterns'

Feeling the Iboga through psychic mirroring' (I can tell exactly as of when the Iboga hits home' the client ingests the woods and I get somewhat blasted' strobbing' and a big expansion to conciousness of where I can see the psychic shadows of the client' know of where they are upon the journey'

NO' 4'

HANDS ON' KEEP IN CONTACT WITH THE CLIENT' NO LET THEM JOURNEY OFF "DEEP" KEEP THEM TETHERED EARTHSIDE'
NO LET THEM LEAVE WITHOUT CONFIRMING AFFIRMATIONS!

This also comes down to the spirits one works with through Iboga' these are also there to guide and aid in the client journeying safely'

Good thread' nice one folks'

Blessings Love and Light'

+NNM+

Offline GratefulDad

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2010, 01:16:11 AM »
Nobu, I do believe there is much wisdom and experience in your words.  Thanks for your views..  I, too, feel that the role of a diligent provider is important for those unfamiliar with iboga.  Your ideas of touch, and close attention, I believe, will do wonders for iboga underground and elsewhere.  Nice to have ya back!
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"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason."

Nganga Nobunoni +

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2010, 01:42:45 AM »
Tia, just because you do believe it, doesn't mean that it is true.

If people could die just by wishing it, Dr. Kavorkian would never have needed to make his little machine and go to jail.  If it was that easy, those seeking extinction of themselves would not have to put a gun to their heads to end themselves.  It just doesn't work that way.

Ayahuasca is no less powerful than iboga, but no myth about people willing themselves dead surrounds ayahuasca.  Or any other drug, for that matter.  Iboga is no different.  (Massive OD is another matter, I will grant that.)

I personally think that talk about choosing to die and then succeeding while using iboga is a disservice and is counterproductive.  Many people are apprehensive enough about iboga without planting ideas of doom in their minds.  Being frightened only increases the probability of a difficult experience.  A person should be concentrating on the good things that will result when he/she pops that pill.  Remember hearing about 'set and setting'?

While you may have a fascination and preoccupation with the idea, the overwhelming majority of people do not take iboga with the intent of dying.  Have you ever heard of someone taking iboga to commit suicide?  They take it to heal themselves and learn.

People who want to die take a handful of pills, not iboga.  Iboga is inherently life-affirming.  It is medicine.  It is the nature of medicine to heal, not kill.

Just because you believe that that door led to death doesn't mean that it did.  And even if it did lead there, you may have found yourself unable to open it if you tried.

We may think that dying is the best solution, but our souls are wiser than that, I sincerely believe.  I say that the best advice is to listen to your soul.    ~eon



Sorry Eon' your comments here are un-educated as to of what Iboga is and does do as of when you ingest it!

Iboga re-births egg of conciousness!
All bio-electric patterns within the body' built by memory' are wiped "Clear"
Conciousness leaves the body and becomes un-tethered' the "Soul" is un-seated and passes through the veil' if there is no reason for the soul to return' then the body dies'

Iboga amongst many things is a weapon of psychic warfare'
Warfare with yourself and your self percieved enemies'

When you ingest of a sufficient amount of Iboga' you become veil-less' all attachment to the physical realm is lost' one walks with deads'

There is also some question as to your post about high dosage Iboga shall kill you' OD or something'

I would have to disagree here' I myself and many others I know have ingested large' large amounts of Iboga'
Myself' 56 grams of high quality RB' other than eyes open eyes closed visuals and completely blasted for the best part of 6 days' and the "Voice" of an african god in my head for 6 weeks' there was no risk to myself other than possibly killing a few punjik cells' and a hard case of Iboga psychosis'
(30mg/kg/ shall no kill you' it just could damage cells in the cerebelum and olive parts of the brain' (21mg/kg body weight is chosen becasue 25mg/kg body weight has been seen to possibly cause damage to the brains of rats' but man is human and no rodent' so 21mg/kg is airing upon the side of great caution'

Anyways' much study to be done'

Good energies to everyone'

Bliss!

Nobu +
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 02:04:27 AM by Nganga Nobunoni + »

Offline x

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2010, 01:45:44 AM »
Thanks, Nobu. I always feel a little less crazy when I read you.

'Holding space' is an older psych term, the workers in the 'psychedelic' community picked it up (at least aya and ibo). It basically means paying constant attention on an essence level. Cool beans.

Tia

Nganga Nobunoni +

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2010, 02:38:12 AM »
Agreed, fallout.  The dose does not have to be so high for psycho/spiritual and the people would probably be healthier and stronger to start with.

Also, while it would not fit so well into a 7 - 10 day stay at a clinic, I do not see why opiate detox could not be a series of smaller doses  --  just enough to kill withdrawal  --  repeated maybe weekly over several weeks.  The alkaloids would still build up in the system, and people with less than robust health could be treated more safely.  I seem to recall reading that doses as small as 200mg of HCl will kill withdrawal symptoms for a while.

Fit the treatment to the patient, not the other way around.  Right?

A series of 4 doses worked for my cigarette habit, and I'm betting that it would work well for alcohol and stimulants, too.

Since tolerance to the psychedelic effects builds up with weekly dosing, one could use that to get more iboga into someone with less stress on the mind and body.  Sorta like boring a series of holes in the head instead of breaking the thing wide-open.   :D

Yer Friendly Iconoclast,

ET

One of the main points of Iboga is the psychological expereince'

You are no going to get past addiction by just tickling your way into Ibo land'

The experience has to be the most powerful psychological experience you ever had in your life'

this builds the whitewall of body memories'

The wall of initiation is so high that there is no way of getting over the top of it and bringing back body emotion memory'

200mg Ibogaine HCL shall touch a small withdrawal' and it shall do next to n o thing to NMDA pathways' and leave all bio-electric patterns within the body intact'
You could waste one hell of a lot of Ibogaine just messing about "Dabbing" bits' instead of doing the deed and taking a substantial dose in the first place'
If you attempted to follow this protocol' you would end up using possibly 3 times the amount of Ibogaine and just succeed in making the client seriously wired/psychosed'

One good dose' followed by regular boosters!

Bliss!

+NNM+

P.S. Since tolerance to the psychedelic effects builds up with weekly dosing,

Eon' you have information to back up this statement bro ?

In my experience you no build a tolerance to Ibogaine' you just get used to it somewhat' as in accepting the effect'
Weekly doses of Ibogaine HCL have exactly the same effect' each dose after each other' there is no tolerance built to Ibogaine as there would be say to using morphine daily'
All you manage doing taking over regular low doses of Ibogaine is get wired and psychosed'

fallout330

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2010, 01:46:24 PM »
Hey guys/girls,

Not to get off track, but I was surprised to learn that Albeuterol has some possible negative effects with QT interval.  I've been taking Albeuterol for over 20 years for asthma control.  Apparently this effect is the same risk as one might possibly get with Ibogaine.

I probably wouldn't want to mix to much Albeuterol with Ibogaine :-)

http://www.azcert.org/medical-pros/drug-lists/drug-lists.cfm

Offline Calaquendi

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2010, 06:50:08 PM »
Thanks for the good info fallout! Would be prudent to make note of that potential contraindication.

Nobu - good to see you back man!

I have to agree with Eon on this one point: it IS prudent to take lower (sub flood) doses to detox from opiates if the patient has health concerns that would rule out a full scale episode. I DO think flooding is far preferable - and for the reasons you stated mostly: the deeper psychological and spiritual cleaning happens at an 'all at once' and in a big bang. But I have read of those with health or other concerns being unable or unwilling to risk a full flood dose, but still wanting to use the medicine to get over addiction. It certainly CAN be done this way, and frankly it's a hella preferable to being nonchalant about big doses if there are serious questions about safety.

It would take longer and could even actually extend the risks: the main risk being that the user is going to require more time actually using iboga/ibogaine. And supervision under these extended circumstances can be tricky. The temptation to use (opiates) may very well still be present for the first few days and we all know that is probably the number one no-no. So if someone chooses to do iboga tx for opiates using the smaller scale dosing, there are issues that need to be dealt with specific to that protocol. I am in favor of custom designing each treatment for each individual. Yes there are general protocols we may follow, but not a single one of us is identical in our specific needs, so tailoring treatment protocols to suit individual needs is not just preferable, it is necessary IMO.

Thanks to all - this is a very important thread. We will never be able to completely mesh the science of psychedelics with the 'art' of it...the spiritual/psychic side. This forum is NOT a science board. Notations and statistics are of course always welcomed and beneficial - but history has proved time and again that scientific facts are ephemeral. They are only facts until that same science trumps those facts and replaces them with a more contemporary version (cosmo -centric thinking -the earth is flat, or is the center of the galaxy etc.) These were all facts until we devised instruments to measure otherwise. Please let us all be aware of this paradox. This is a discussion forum and while there is welcome room for both the sciences and the art of healing, neither takes precedent where this board is concerned. Only insofar as what each member chooses to take with them...
" I am you and what I see is me..."

Offline GratefulDad

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Re: IS IBOGA SAFE ?
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2010, 10:55:37 AM »
Way to bring the points home Cal!!
GratefulDad

"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason."