Topic: a##holes making really big messes with iboga in Thailand

[body-ça-te-va]

http://www.andrew-drummond.com/2014/12/yet-another-cover-up-scandal-of-koh.html

Seriously messed up.

[dusttrust]

"Victor said take these 2 valium they will put you in a sleep like state."

Valium on ibogaine? WTF!?

This guy should have been arrested, but it appears the cops are corrupted or something. It could as well not even be the first nor last death there.

[TS]

When I read stories like this, I always wonder why they didn't just find a sitter they trusted and do it themselves.  Do the research and rent a bungalow or hotel room for a few days at a fraction of the cost of going to one of these mickey mouse "centres."
 
 Anyway, it's easy to say this in hindsight and my condolences go out to Brodie's friends and family.  I look forward to the day when I finally flood and have a lot of hope invested in Iboga.  I can imagine that Brodie and his girlfriend must have held the same hopes and it's a real tragedy that it ended the way it did

[body-ça-te-va]

When I read stories like this, I always wonder why they didn't just find a sitter they trusted and do it themselves.

I get the impression, maybe wrongly, you tell me, that you underestimate the skill involved in being a sitter.  You say 'find a sitter' as if it was much simpler and more straightforward than finding a 'center.'  BUt in my view they are kind of the same thing.  Sitters can vary wildly in understanding and deeply affect the outcome.  Finding a sitter, the right one, is pretty much 'it.'  Those 2 assholes were sitters, just very bad ones.

[TS]

When I read stories like this, I always wonder why they didn't just find a sitter they trusted and do it themselves.

I get the impression, maybe wrongly, you tell me, that you underestimate the skill involved in being a sitter.  You say 'find a sitter' as if it was much simpler and more straightforward than finding a 'center.'  BUt in my view they are kind of the same thing.  Sitters can vary wildly in understanding and deeply affect the outcome.  Finding a sitter, the right one, is pretty much 'it.'  Those 2 assholes were sitters, just very bad ones.

I don't underestimate the skill involved at all and I have no doubt that there are some very skillful people out there running legitimate centres or Bwiti shamans (if you are lucky enough to know how to contact one).  If you read my post again, you will see that I wrote that people should do the research and that the sitter should be someone they trust not some cowboys in another country with a fancy website. If I was going to die in such a situation, then I would rather it be with someone who cared about me and not a bunch of people trying to make a quick buck and then cover it up when things went wrong.  That's me voicing my opinion on it and there will be others who have different opinions which they are entitled to. It's all hypothetical though and I did say that hindsight is a wonderful thing. 

[holybark]

Be careful that you don't believe everything you read. This story likely has many layers to it.

  http://www.smh.com.au/national/western-australian-brodie-smiths-bid-for-ibogaine-drug-cure-ends-in-death-20141222-1283pk.html

Terrible tragedy all the same, regardless of who's fault this was.

[holybark]

"Victor said take these 2 valium they will put you in a sleep like state."

Valium on ibogaine? WTF!

Valium is usually safe to mix with Ibogaine.

[RhythmSpring]

Valium is usually safe to mix with Ibogaine.

Can you provide a source for this?
Why would you mix valium with Ibogaine anyway??? Iboga does a good enough job of putting you in a "dream-like state."
Seems unnecessary and risky.

[holybark]

Valium is usually safe to mix with Ibogaine.

Can you provide a source for this?
Why would you mix valium with Ibogaine anyway??? Iboga does a good enough job of putting you in a "dream-like state."
Seems unnecessary and risky.

I agree that it is not recommended to mix Ibogaine with anything, especially if you're trying to achieve a "dream like state" (because, as is obvious, Iboga already does that). However, it is safe to mix Iboga with certain medications, if they are needed. It is not recommended to detox people off benzos using Ibogaine due to risk of seizure.  That is why many providers recommend getting off of benzos first, or staying on them throughout the session. This is one of many reasons someone might want to take Valium before, during, or after an Iboga experience.  Again, I believe one should try to let Iboga do its thing ALONE.  I wasn't stating it was a smart idea for these providers to supposedly administer Valium for the reasons the author states, I was simply stating that Valium is usually safe to administer during Iboga session.

 Here is one of the sources you asked for:  http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/manual.html

 excerpt: "Ibogaine has been administered safely with various forms of sedation including benzodiazepines, barbiturates, melatonin, valerian and chamomile.

On an adjunct issue, one author comments, "benzodiazepines are useful before, during and/or after the ibogaine dose if there is anxiety. If there is considerable anxiety some days after detoxification buspirone is better because of its low liability for addiction."

I hope this helps answer your question and inquiry RhythmSpring.

[body-ça-te-va]

I don't underestimate the skill involved at all and I have no doubt that there are some very skillful people out there running legitimate centres or Bwiti shamans (if you are lucky enough to know how to contact one).  If you read my post again, you will see that I wrote that people should do the research and that the sitter should be someone they trust not some cowboys in another country with a fancy website. If I was going to die in such a situation, then I would rather it be with someone who cared about me and not a bunch of people trying to make a quick buck and then cover it up when things went wrong.  That's me voicing my opinion on it and there will be others who have different opinions which they are entitled to. It's all hypothetical though and I did say that hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Sorry, you are misunderstanding my comment.  You wrote: " I always wonder why they didn't just find a sitter they trusted and do it themselves"  It's the "just" I was commenting on.  The "just" stuck out for me because in my view there is no "just" about that -- it is the key and the hardest part.

They did "find a sitter they trusted and do it themselves" as best as they knew at the time. 

[TS]

I don't underestimate the skill involved at all and I have no doubt that there are some very skillful people out there running legitimate centres or Bwiti shamans (if you are lucky enough to know how to contact one).  If you read my post again, you will see that I wrote that people should do the research and that the sitter should be someone they trust not some cowboys in another country with a fancy website. If I was going to die in such a situation, then I would rather it be with someone who cared about me and not a bunch of people trying to make a quick buck and then cover it up when things went wrong.  That's me voicing my opinion on it and there will be others who have different opinions which they are entitled to. It's all hypothetical though and I did say that hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Sorry, you are misunderstanding my comment.  You wrote: " I always wonder why they didn't just find a sitter they trusted and do it themselves"  It's the "just" I was commenting on.  The "just" stuck out for me because in my view there is no "just" about that -- it is the key and the hardest part.

They did "find a sitter they trusted and do it themselves" as best as they knew at the time.

I think that if we take the word "just" too literally, then I can understand where my post may have been taken in the wrong sense.  It was just( ) my manner of speaking and in no way meant to trivialise the act of finding the right sitter.  I know from personal experience how hard it is.  I hope we don't have to get into a debate about semantics as I can see where you are coming from and hopefully I have made my position a bit clearer.
Sometimes it's hard to express your exact feelings over the internet

[mudhen]

Good post addressing valium and ibogaine, holybark.

Even in Africa, there are Iboga deaths.

These folk from the article are thrust into a whirlwind, and I have compassion for what they must face.

One of my elders said to me once, that there is an ibogaine death about every three hundred people who take ibogaine. That is based on decades of observation, not internet reports.
This is a dangerous sacrament. There are many, many ways to make it safer, and not all of them are biomedical. Having medical staff absolutely does not ensure there will not be a death.

A colleague once shared with me some years ago that everyone they knew who was experienced in working with iboga had experienced the death of a client. Everyone. That's something. My colleague is not one for exaggeration.

When I work with people, I am so very, very careful. On so very many levels. I've yet to have someone die, but I've also yet to have worked with 300 people, though I am not far.

For most people, death is shocking, frightening, mysterious and disorienting.
My prayers go out to those in the community impacted by this reported death, and certainly my prayers go out to the gf and family of the deceased.
Iboga, guys, c'mon. Take all warnings seriously. Research the skill level of your provider. Research all you can about how to best prepare.
A good journey on it's own, is to actually prepare for death, write up your will, your last instructions, who you like present at your funeral, what kind of service you would like, what music played, etc.
Then, keep researching iboga, knowing that sometimes, even with the best of preparations, people die.

Okie dokie.

[dreamedm]

"They said we would be taking 40 mg per kilo body weight."

40mg/1kg is an absolute overdose! Also, Ibogaine HCL may be dangerous! I want to stress that based on my provider's experience, if your'e doing a flood dose, especially for healing purposes, you should only consider doing Iboga TA, rather than Ibogaine HCL.

My provider administers 22mg/1kg for males and 18mg/1kg for females. If a male is extremely big and built like a tank, the most he'll administer is 30mg/1kg.

[holybark]

Ibogaine HCL may be dangerous! I want to stress that based on my provider's experience, if your'e doing a flood dose, especially for healing purposes, you should only consider doing Iboga TA, rather than Ibogaine HCL.

I hear from others that HCL is a little safer than TA or RB. Something about the excess alkaloids in TA and RB can cause more cardiac issues. It's possible that it's not true, but I have had more than one provider tell me this. I think it's safe to say all forms of this medicine are potentially dangerous, but what is it that makes HCL more of a danger?

[dreamedm]

I hear from others that HCL is a little safer than TA or RB. Something about the excess alkaloids in TA and RB can cause more cardiac issues. It's possible that it's not true, but I have had more than one provider tell me this. I think it's safe to say all forms of this medicine are potentially dangerous, but what is it that makes HCL more of a danger?

I just spoke with my provider and he says he doesn't believe in any form being dangerous, but that Ibogaine HCL simply doesn't work as well as RB or TA, because the latter are the real thing (TA has more of the original RB alkaloids, whereas HCL has only 1 alkaloid, iirc). Iboga is supposedly generally safe when you don't have any adverse/allergic reactions to the test dosage, which you must do prior to taking a "flood" dose.

It seems like most (if not all) the fatalities are due to something else, rather than Iboga itself. You must take every precaution prior to doing a flood dose, and if a person is on pain or heart meds, it can, indeed, be dangerous.

It also happens that all deaths are Ibogaine HCL related, except for a woman in Africa who died of RB, but she showed an allergic reaction to the test dose, and thus shouldn't have proceeded with the rest of the full dosage. My provider believes that if you generally seem to be in good health to take Iboga, the test dosage - mine was 1g RB and a bit of extract (my provider believes test dose should be 1-2 grams, depending on someone's size) - will tell you if you are ready or not to take the full dose after.

My provider also just told me that methadone stays in the system for 3 months, and that one should switch to shorting acting opiates before iboga for 3 weeks, to be safer.