Author Topic: Anxiety Treatment  (Read 37202 times)

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Offline x

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Re: Anxiety Treatment
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2010, 06:05:17 PM »
Thanks for that info. That's about what I used for my flood as well, though I think I will go higher for my next.
When I did my own home treatment with an inexperienced sitter, I thought less would do it, he was surprised to have to keep feeding me more. Now I know, lol. Which is why next time, I will have an experienced person, someone who knows ibo very well!

With respect to you, Eon, have you tried going INTO your anxiety, instead of eliminating? Sitting with it, thinking about the fears, what they are, paying attention to what is happening with your body while experiencing anxiety?

Maybe approaching the anxiety instead of approaching external fixes will be something you can explore with a therapist.

I know for me, I have some big financial and security worries at times. These are things which at one time would have paralyzed me. I have been exploring my reactions to external events with an observant self, looking at why I react, where it really comes from. It's been very informative. Heck, it's been transformative. I don't take any medications at all except for root bark (and not much, really) and smoking pot a couple times a month. Does tobacco count as medicine? I smoke a couple cigars a day, too. :)

It's easy and gratifying to let our very strong, smart brains run with things like chemistry and control. It's a lot more difficult (but far more healing, imho) to get out of our brains and into our bodies, emotions and souls.
I think that it's wonderful that you are addressing anxiety, Eon. A candle for you, with loving prayers.

With love,
T


Offline riverhaven

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Re: Anxiety Treatment
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2010, 08:15:31 PM »
I read thru some posts by physicians who used this in their patients-- and it does work well with panic attacks-- which is perhaps what you are describing as your anxiety in your life?  It also doesn't do well with treating severe depression- only mild, so continuing ibogaine as your main AD isn't such a bad idea.  I think you might be pleasantly surprised with it's anti-anxiety effects.  In addition-- unlike most other AD-- it only takes less than a week to feel the anti-depressant effects of this drug.  This might be good for your plan to fix you underlying causes of your anxiety and depression-- you can get to them sooner.

It said up to 20% of patients get insomnia-- that's a lot-- and unless the herbal stuff works for you-- you are talking about adding yet another addictive drug to your regimen if you use the Moclobemide and you get insomnia.

I think it is worth trying the moclobemide and seeing if it does reduce your acute anxiety by itself.  If you get the insomnia-- start with valerian, melatonin etc to see if those work before you start with any prescription drugs as they are all addictive.  They also if you look at the studies only get you to sleep 13 min sooner and don't prevent night time awakenings-- it's almost sounds like a placebo drug that winds up addicting you for no good reason to me.   But give the moclobemide a chance to fix your anxiety itself as it sounded like to my reading that it does work for that.  I wouldn't go adding in any BZDs for at least a couple of weeks after you start the moclobemide to give it a chance.

HTH

River

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: Anxiety Treatment
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2010, 08:22:31 PM »

With respect to you, Eon, have you tried going INTO your anxiety, instead of eliminating? Sitting with it, thinking about the fears, what they are, paying attention to what is happening with your body while experiencing anxiety?

Tiacita,

One thing I have found out is that sitting and thinking about my fears is a sure way to precipitate anxiety.  If I do it long and intently enough, I can even get to the panic attack level.  Not something that is good for me.

Maybe you meant something else and I have misunderstood you?

As far as what happens with my body, my pulse and blood pressure rise, my stomach churns and secretes acid, and I am sure that my nervous system is being bathed in norepinephrine and noradrenaline.

While I know that such autonomic functions can be consciously controlled, and can do so to a limited degree, there are times when I am overwhelmed and paralyzed.  Boldly marching into the lair of my fears, I have found after repeated attempts, exacerbates my fears instead of allaying them.

To use an analogy:  Anxiety is like a muscle.  Use it repeatedly and it only grows larger and stronger.  I have been exercising my 'anxiety-muscle' since the age of 4, and it has accordingly developed into a massive thing.  I am, like, the Mr. Universe of anxiety.

That's why I see it necessary to stop using it by whatever means available  --  to starve the anxiety-muscle of blood, so to speak.


Maybe approaching the anxiety instead of approaching external fixes will be something you can explore with a therapist.

After repeated failed attempts to deal with the external things that cause me anxiety, I am convinced that I need external helpers, both people and drugs, to eliminate them.  As I said, I have already started the ball rolling to get help from a therapist.
Doctors can often be influenced by a patients suggestions, and rightly so in some circumstances, if for no other reason than the placebo effect.  I want to have 2 lists of anxiolytics (and sleep aids) to take to the doc, one list of those I will consider and one list of those I won't.

That's why I'm seeking recommendations from the ibogang here on the Forum.     ~et

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: Anxiety Treatment
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2010, 08:27:52 PM »

I read thru some posts by physicians who used this in their patients-- and it does work well with panic attacks

Hi River,

I was just finishing my response to Tia when your post appeared, so I just let it fly.

Are you referring to moclobemide in the quote above?   ~et

Offline GratefulDad

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Re: Anxiety Treatment
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2010, 08:44:12 PM »
I have sat back from this discussion for a good bit.  The reason why is because I don't think what I feel and think will be what you'd like to hear Eon.  I honestly think all the anxiety people have, is created in their own mind, by worrying about things that are unnecessary.  One begins to worry that something might be wrong, they can't control, then they focus on it, and cause actual physical symptoms to arise.  It comes down to getting off the pharmaceutical crap that doctors would pump you full of.  Iboga will get to the root of the problem, and if you can work your way through the feelings and come to a revelation, it becomes easier to put the worries and fears into perspective.  In other words, IMO, the anxiety you feel is all in your head, and you continue to create it and perpetuate it. 

I think if you take a good flood of ibo, lay off the stupid pharma crap, WHICH they produced to steal your money, and trick doctors to think that they are helping, with more propaganda, that you might begin to realize your true self and true potential.  I could be crazy, totally off, and I am not a medical expert, so it's only my opinion, but I bet I could straighten you out..  And it would be first by starting to remove all these nutty drugs you want to take.. 

Again just my opinion, and by no means should you listen to me, if you think I am way off base.  I really want you to understand I am not trying to be mean, but I seriously think you create all this stuff yourself.  I feel you are totally responsible for every feeling you feel, and if you want to change, you need to do so from within..  You just got stinkin thinkin, and need a check up from the neck up! 
GratefulDad

"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason."

Offline riverhaven

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Re: Anxiety Treatment
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2010, 09:31:53 PM »
Sorry Eon-- yes I meant I read up on Moclobemide for you and found a listing of posts from various docs all over the world who have used it.  I summarized it for you in my post.

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: Anxiety Treatment
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2010, 09:35:20 PM »
Dad,

While I don't believe that you're trying to be mean, it is certainly true that you are not being empathetic or sympathetic.  But then, maybe you have never had thoughts or emotions that you couldn't control.  Maybe anger, fear, jealousy, love or hate have never caused you problems.  I'm not sure if that makes you lucky or not.

The vast majority of people are not that 'lucky' and will find themselves overwhelmed by any one of a number of emotions at least once in their lifetimes, usually more.  Read up on counseling; a sympathetic ear is recommended over the tough-guy approach in everything I have read.  Belittling the person one is ostensibly trying to help accomplishes nothing of value, IMO.

Duh, of course it's all in my head.  You talk like I'm an idiot or something.

I'm not the only one on this Forum who has psychological and/or emotional issues.  You do all us sikkos a disservice with such a dismissive, condescending attitude.

There's no way I would let anyone with that kind of attitude try to "straighten me out!"

Eon


PS to River  --  Thanks a million!  I thought that was what you meant from reading the entire post but wanted to be sure.  I sure do appreciate your research effort.  My research into Moclobemide did not turn up anything about panic attacks.   ~et

Offline x

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Re: Anxiety Treatment
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2010, 09:55:10 PM »
Sometimes, Eon, it's very hard to be honest with you, because I fear you will take things the wrong way, based on experiences I've had with you.
Nothing in GD's post did I read as condescending, I read lots of support, and an offering to help.

Underneath everyone's anxiety are erroneous base beliefs about ourselves. They are different for everyone. Getting down and into those beliefs can help heal them. That's what I meant about sitting with your anxiety. Going into it. There are some scary things inside all of us, for sure. What happens in a panic attack? What would happen if you went into that as well? On the other side of our greatest fear is our greatest peace.

I think a big, thumpy flood would do you good as well. Some of those scary things get healed with a big flood.

We are all on our own journeys to our own truths, and it's not for me to say that you are not exactly where you need to be at this very moment.

Love,
Tia


Offline riverhaven

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Re: Anxiety Treatment
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2010, 10:43:20 PM »
To Grateful Dad-- you diss drugs, yet recommend one to straighten out Eon-- ibogaine and then proceed to tell him he's basically making himself sick and he doesn't need drugs.  I realize you feel that ibogaine allows you to heal yourself-- but I maintain it's a drug, it causes the same increase in neurotransmitters that the drugs Eon wants to take increase.  I believe it helps with depression, drug withdrawal etc thru it's actions on the brain- it's drug-like reaction.   The very hallucinogenic effect that causes us to be able to view ourselves are all caused by changes the drug ibogaine makes to the brain.  It's as much a psychoactive drug as the drugs Eon is talking about using.  Is the ibogaine more effective than the other drugs?  That remains to be really studied-- anectdotal reports from specific patients doesn't count.  It could be that it is more effective and I also would bet that if Eon could do the ibogaine treatment with directive thoughts/affirmations made by his therapist as mine did during my alpha/theta neurofeedback-- he could perhaps overcome the anxiety.  But I think at this point he's too far gone to try just the ibogaine and there isn't a clear way to use it for his anxiety-- doing it on his own hasn't helped him.   Doing it with monitoring at a rehab wouldn't be any better-- I honestly believe he needs a directed experience to target the anxiety.  So, right now there doesn't exist a way to use ibogaine as an anxiety reducing medication-- Eon has shown that to himself.   My reading of ibogaine effects show it can cause worse anxiety after a flood, so doing one might be detrimental to Eon.  At this point it seems more reasonable to me that he continue to use the smaller doses of ibogaine as an AD and he treat his anxiety separately.  Ibogaine has clearly been shown to help with depression as much as current ADs do, so Eon should use it.

I do see how ibogaine has helped you, GD and that it will help a lot of people if it's ever allowed to do so.  I believe in it-- it helped me tons-- but it is a drug as surely as are the AD and anti-anxiety drugs are.  I even think it could help people like Eon one day if studied as to how to administer it-- what dose should be used and probably with some directed therapy to help him overcome the anxiety.

It was interesting to hear an AA sentiment-- you have stinking thinking, along with a suggestion to use a psychoactive drug-- they most certainly wouldn't approve of that at all!  Nor do they approve of taking any psych drugs. 

I also didn't find GD's post to be condescending-- he just doesn't believe in using any drugs other than ibogaine to help and he tried to express that.   I have to agree with Tia-- he was trying to help.  I happen to think differently about it than GD does.  And I am trying to help too. 



Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: Anxiety Treatment
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2010, 11:39:57 PM »
River,

Thanks so much for your objective response.  While you see the value of iboga treatment, you also see it's limitations clearly  --  it is not a universal panacea.

Yours is the kind of advice I was looking for when I started this topic  --  measured, objective and based upon my current needs.  Thanks!


Dad & Tia,

I apologize if I got testy, but sometimes it is not possible to turn off negative psychological states like hitting a wall switch  --  if it were, there would be no multi-billion dollar antidepressant/anxiolytic market, would there?  I have put a huge amount of effort into solving my problems and perhaps I am overly sensitive at this time to suggestions that I am ignoring means and methods to heal myself.  I am not without qualities and strength even if I am having difficulty with parts of my life at present.

I realize that neither of you are trained therapists and that I undoubtedly had unrealistic expectations and was overly sensitive to your comments.

Can you two agree that a flood dose of iboga is not a cure for everything?  Remember, a one-trick pony can only do one trick  --  we limit ourselves if we take a view that is too narrow.  Zealots are neither rational nor open minded, I hope you do not let yourselves fall into that category.

Iboga is a tool.  You would not use a hammer to sink a screw, would you?  A saw to pound in a nail?

et

RavAv

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Re: Anxiety Treatment
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2010, 12:26:22 AM »
Trouble with you is the trouble with me,
Got two good eyes but we still don't see.

 ;D

Offline GratefulDad

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Re: Anxiety Treatment
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2010, 12:51:16 AM »
You misunderstand me, I think.  I am not trying to be condescending..  It has been my experience, however, that drugs can't cure the problem, since it is from within.  The only way to sort through the problem is to get to it's root.  To figure out why you feel the way you do.  Only then can you begin to fix the problem.  You can only put a band aid over a wound for so long.  The band aid won't heal you, it just makes it look nicer until it's healed.  The problem is, the drugs do nothing to stop the problem..  Therefore, you can pick any drug you wish to treat your symptoms, but that's only if you never want to be cured..

This is coming from someone who has used drugs for most of my life, whether to treat my issues, or to have fun, or to escape feeling the way I did.  Only after learning that most drugs won't fix anything, could I begin to figure out that they were a big part of the problem.  Sure I still enjoy using some drugs, but it's for recreation, or insight, not to cover up my feelings. 

I have had irrational fears, worries and anxieties, but I learned how to control them with my mind.  Your power to control your mind, your emotions, and your physical actions is definitely something you should look into, as it doesn't seem, in all the research and drug taking you've been doing (for how long?), has helped you come to a single conclusion.  Maybe it's me, but you can keep trying the same things over and over and expecting different results, or you might try to sort it out a different way.  Iboga helps balance all this stuff, and that is what Eboka Forums, is about, correct?  Using iboga to heal, to get off drugs, etc.?

I went through years of counseling for drug addiction, and my feelings come from my heart.  I see your anguish day in and day out, and I think using drugs to control your seemingly irrational fears and anxieties will not help you.  But alas, you must find your own path.  Like they say, whatever helps you sleep at night..

Nowhere did I call you an idiot.  I am not trying to be a tough guy, and maybe you're right, I shouldn't try to help with my views.  I am sorry you feel the way you do, and I don't know how I could be of any help.  I was right to refrain from speaking on your thread, and I will leave it now.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2010, 01:21:02 AM by GratefulDad »
GratefulDad

"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason."

RavAv

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Re: Anxiety Treatment
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2010, 01:03:24 AM »
Shalom,
Hope my comment was not insulting.
I enjoy being part of this forum.
Truth is, it is the only forum I take part in.
I once saw a survey that read:
90% of the world does not think, 9% think they think, 1% actually think
Praise the Creator, everyone here is working on themselves,
trying to improve themselves
and be better people
do not take that for granted
it is a rare commodity in our time and generation
i admire that you all are working on yourselves
but please don't take your selves too serious
placing too much importance on anything is the beginning of its downfall
I know that i know nothing - I'm just a bozo on the bus trying to focus on truth
and willing to work hard to get there
sometimes we fall in to the trap and all of a sudden
everyone seems to be an expert
i do not trust myself, and I certainly take with a grain of salt what others (even experts) say
curveballs were created by the Creator for those who think they know
years ago i worked with many medicine men / shamans
they would not even assist in the healings for at least 10 years, and would not guide a healing for almost twenty years
to teach or give advice - they would wait 30 or more years
today everyone is a shaman / guide / teacher / expert / healer in 2 years
or after 3 visions and a long seminar
let's not take ourselves too serious
let's keep working on oursleves and do our best to help each other

surrendering ourselves, we learn to trust.
Moving aside, starts the journey of life.
Surrendering your will, you find yourself.
Opening to the love, the world comes alive.
Unity

peace, love and blessings
« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 03:30:53 PM by VaVar »

Offline GratefulDad

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Re: Anxiety Treatment
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2010, 01:11:49 AM »
Again, Eon, if you'd read my post, I said I could be totally, wrong, I might be crazy, hell we all know that, and I am just giving my OPINION.  That is all it was.  If my opinion doesn't gel with what you feel, then by all means disregard it.  I never tried to insult you at all.  I only gave what I honestly felt might help. 

BTW, I ain't trying to treat anyone, I am not a shaman, a medicine man, or healer..  I can be a good friend, though, and sometimes that does mean showing some tough love, if I feel it's needed.  Now I hope you don't get offended, but I'd rather you hate me to high heavens if it helped you get a new angle on a way to help yourself.. 
GratefulDad

"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason."

Nganga Nobunoni +

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Re: Anxiety Treatment
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2010, 07:58:12 AM »
>>>Read up on counseling; a sympathetic ear is recommended over the tough-guy approach in everything I have read.<<<

Thanks for the big smiles Eon'

Councilors act the way they do cos they are taught to do so' so they get paid and keep clients coming back' so they can if possible' get em addicted to pharma shit and counceling' and have em on their books for the next 15-20 years' so they can pay for their cars' morgages' wives and girlfriends'

You are the one that puts in your mind that of which you look to see' You create your own anxieties then feed them' the likes of putting logs on the fire'

Of what I see is you no suffer anxiety' you "Worry" about physical things' money' etc'

You should use your psychic energies for to get money to come to you' no sit there and worry about of where it is going to come from' you waste your time' your energies and your life' as of when you could put these energies to good use and create something better for yourself'

Worry is a self creation and also a SIN'

The Law of Attraction states that of that which you think of' imagine and feed with emotion shall manifest itself within your life'

Stop manifesting worry and re-channel these energies into something constructive'


No outside influences can help you'

You have got to want to heal yourself' if you make half hearted attempts at dealing with yourself' then you shall get half hearted results'


Meditation and Tai Chi' teach your mind that you are in control' you have got a rampant head monkey of whom has no self dissapline' learn to sit him down' cross his legs and fold his arms and tell him he is dearly loved' and that he should play with one toy at a time' and only speak as of when spoken to'

Mind can only look in one dirrection at one time' it is up to you of which dirrection you point your mind to see'

Power Love and Light to you brother'

Nobu +