Author Topic: trials and tribs  (Read 4124 times)

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Offline mushroom

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trials and tribs
« on: July 29, 2010, 10:20:19 AM »
It has been a while since I popped in here and thought an update may be in order.

Back in February my wife and I ended our opiate habits with ibogaine, the thread is around here somewhere if anyone is interested in the actual experience.

For a little over two months I was just shining. I had no problem abstaining from opiates, but started to use marijuana more and more. It came to the point where I was smoking 10 or more times a day, just staying high all the time. Obviously a marijuana habit is much less harmful than an opiate one, but I could see where it was going.

Around the two month mark my wife and I got ourselves some poppy seeds and made tea. At first I couldn't believe how much I disliked it; I was all lethargic and slow, numb to the world and it lasted for 48+ hours. I thought: 'wow I spent how many years of my life feeling like THIS everyday!?'

Despite my initial reaction we started getting seeds more and more. By the middle of May and all through June it turned from 'chipping' into a habit. We had fallen right back to where we were, although not as severely addicted.

Lucky for us our seed source went to shit. They must have got a new batch of seeds in that had been washed because one day they were good and the next day they were worthless. I had sort of been praying that this would happen, and we did end up going through some mild withdrawls and getting clean. This was around the start of July.

We got about two good weeks off the seeds and just as I was starting to feel normal again we found a new source in a far away town where we travel every weekend for business. We thought, 'well it's four hours away so we won't be tempted to do them all the time. We will just buy enough for one dose and it can be our weekend fun thing'

As you can probably guess it has already gone beyond a 'weekend fun thing' and we have made two trips now outside of our normal trips down there to get seeds(an 8 hour round trip).

So here we are now, perhaps on the brink of another habit and I don't even know what to do.

Offline goatboy

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Re: trials and tribs
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2010, 01:09:19 PM »
Mushroom, good to see an update.. I remember when I first came to this forum your experience was one of the first I read.  I liked it a lot, and it seemed you learned a lot while and right after that.  Sorry to hear of your relapse.

I'm just at a loss though.. and forgive me if this is a stupid question but I'm just curious to know.  Why after just two months of being clean would you think of getting some opiates??  And after disliking them, trying it again and again knowing the addiction factor??  Did you just want to get high to relieve stress from other factors?  Sleep better?  Pressure?  Is there a problem that if you possibly addressed it head on, you wouldn't have the need to get high to rid yourself of it very temporary.  It just seems to me that even smoking weed 10 times a day is a little excessive, even for a lot of potheads.  I smoke but limit myself to a very max of 3 blunts a day (most of the time less), no more wanted or necessary, and I love getting high off weed.  It just seems like you surpassed doing it for fun very quickly, and maybe was doing it for other reasons that you could possibly address??  Just a theory, I could be wrong.
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Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: trials and tribs
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2010, 02:33:48 PM »
Mr. Mushroom,

Glad you're back with us!  Sorry to hear you might be "on the brink of another habit" though...

While it would be so easy for me to say:  "Just don't do it!"  --  that kind of thing never worked for me when others said it.

"Just stop being depressed."  "It's all in your mind."  "Just don't do it!"  Yeah, right...

Like goatboy said, WHY have you gone back down the opiate road?  If you can accurately and honestly answer that question, then you will know what needs to be fixed.  Once you 'fix it' then willpower, restraint or commitment is unnecessary  --  you won't have the desire to use.

Me, my self-discipline and willpower too often seem as strong as over-cooked spaghetti.  If I can't get beyond wanting (much less needing) to do something, I'm in trouble.

That old TV commercial is going through my brain:  "Quitting cigarettes is easy!  I've done it a thousand times..."

On the bright side, it is a very, very good thing that you are dealing with the situation.  That you have the balls to write what you did is definitely encouraging.

You use the term "we" in your post, not "she" or "me".  Laying blame on either of you is NOT what I'm trying to do.  I have found that in relationships, there is no one guilty party and there is no one who is totally innocent.  What I do believe to be important is that you both work on getting healthy together  --  that you combine your strengths.

Hope this helped in some small way.

Yer Pal,  Eon

Offline riverhaven

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Re: trials and tribs
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2010, 05:41:09 PM »
You basically screwed your brain up with the original opiates and it is now screaming at you for dopamine and other reward chemicals.  For awhile the ibogaine filled up the receptors and so took the place of these feel good chemicals-- but it wears off.  It takes up to 18 months for your brain to look and act normal again.  That's why you went back.  I think a booster would be a good idea at this point... maybe even a full on second flood.  After that flood-- we are experimenting with microdosing the root bark on a daily basis.  I think if you did this for the 18 months it takes for your brain to heal, you could actually make it and it would be a piece of cake.  It takes care of PAWS, improves your mood in general-- there doesn't seem to be any bad side effects if you keep the dose low.  You won't be walking around tripping on low dose ibogaine.  It's just a feel good chemical that your brain at this point could really use!

I just don't think there is anything you need to "fix"-- your brain is changed and you need to work with that, understand it and do what you can to get back to that happy clean and sober glow.  Additionally, I wouldn't do any drugs-- not even blunts after your second flood.  You just may be a person who needs complete abstinence from any mind altering substance to stay happy.    Good luck...

Offline Calaquendi

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Re: trials and tribs
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2010, 08:48:47 PM »
Great post river! I was going to suggest a boost as well...man mushroom it is damned good to see you dude! Sorry about the relapse, but truth be told - and I know this is not a popular notion, but no less true for that - MOST people will go back to using after their initial exposure to iboga. I have seen folks do it once and be DONE with whatever ailed them, but this is not a standard outcome. More often than not it can take another session or two - we have been doing these addictive and harmful habits for years upon years, and even with the master Wood it can be naive to think that once is always enough...I am not calling you naive - and once CAN be enough, in the real world it seldom is. Your timeline is textbook my friend...textbook insofar as I think if you and your lady had a boost handy - it may not have gotten this far. I think if people can secure a boost or two for the six months after their flood, they can have experiences like yours and learn that those old things do not appeal anymore, and if they beginning to get out of hand (which they will) you have medicine on hand to regenerate the ibogamines in your system and put you back in a good spot. This is not like maintenance therapy. We are only talking about boosting with iboga (around a third of what your flood dose was is a damned good boost - sometimes even less is fine) and not 'needing' to take it as a daily regimen. My suggestion would be to try to recapture that with a boost for both of you. yes, it CAN be done without one, but I say why not pull out the artillery when faced with the possibility of another problem which could escalate in no time back to where it was...it won't take much - if I am not mistaken you and gf took the hcl yes? why not try to find some quality root bark- it is easier to obtain, cheaper and simple to work with. Not to mention super effective. PM me if you have any questions. Thanks for sharing, great to hear from you.
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Offline roy d

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Re: trials and tribs
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2010, 10:59:16 PM »

Hi River,

If a person is using opiates and then quits for a few months and then only uses once a week or once a month will their brain still return to normal?

Thanks,

 Roy

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: trials and tribs
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2010, 02:05:24 AM »
Mr. Mushroom,

I have been thinking about you ever since I replied to your post.  I finally recalled that you two were on suboxone.  Suboxone has gained a reputation as the hardest to kick and as having the longest recovery time of all the opies.  It's been about 5 1/2 months since your flood, right?  There are plenty of testimonials that suboxone PAWS can be hell for over a year.

While there may be other factors involved, I have to think that river and Cal are correct  --  PAWS is certainly playing a large part.

For me, some of the mental effects  --  catching glimpses (hallucinations) of a stringy ball with uncomfortable colors  --  persisted for two months after I had last used opiates.  And that was coming off 'short acting' OC.  Undoubtedly, part of my current depression is linked to opiate use.

If PAWS is the only reason for your relapse, then iboga should definitely be the 'fix' you need to get off the poppies.

Even so, I urge you to search yourselves for the root cause that led you to opiates and addiction.  While Socrates' statement that "the unexamined life is not worth living" is a bit extreme, "know thyself" is always good advice, IMHO.

Many who have been through the iboga experience claim that the increased self-knowledge provided by the medicine plays a big part in recovery.

You might want to enter the root bark drawing, the timing couldn't be better.

Wishing you

Peace, Love & Understanding

Eon
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 02:21:30 AM by Eon T McKnight »

Offline x

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Re: trials and tribs
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2010, 03:08:21 AM »
Mushroom! Yay and hello!!!So very good to hear from you!

River said it well. Another flood, or a big boost, then follow up with root bark until you don't want it anymore.

And goatboy is asking good questions...why do you want it? You hella don't need to tell any of us (tho we listen well) but do you have any answers for yourself, or any inkling?

I gotta say I call suboxone to seeds harm reduction, and I'm quite for harm reduction. But who the heck wants to be addicted to anything, even if it's a botanical. Some say third time is a charm. Maybe flood again. There are some good suppliers on the links page, it's much easier than it was even in February to find what you might be looking for.

I'm so glad you followed up, been wondering about you two.

Tia

Offline mushroom

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Re: trials and tribs
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2010, 07:42:06 AM »
Thanks everyone for the replies. There are some outside factors now that are making me want to use, but at the very beginning I could remember thinking "why am I doing this, I don't even feel bad!" At this point I have some fairly serious stress weighing on me related to the business my wife and I run(we are considering shutting it down), and the seeds really kind of mask all the shit.

I do want to do ibogaine again, even if it wasn't to kick any addictions I would want to do it again. I still think back to it with amazement and want to see what more it has to show me. It's just a matter of cash now, I know it will fall into place when it is supposed to.

Offline goatboy

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Re: trials and tribs
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2010, 09:10:22 AM »
Like Eon said, enter in the drawing.  The timing of that couldn't be better and it's not lasting too long..

I hope you can look into other ways of working with your stress other than strongly sedating yourself.  I do know how hard that is, much easier said that done... I been there, and it took a long time from me realizing my problem to looking into it more, to working on it and addressing it head on.  And I was on opiates for most of that whole process unfortunately which will slow the process down, but sometimes that's easier than being sick as a dog running to the bathroom all day as your trying to figure shit out.  It takes time and alotta work.  A lot of personal insight, and weeding out your issues one problem at a time.  Definitely consider a booster too, I agree that it might be in order.  To help with any withdrawal that may come your way, and so you can see everything clearer.

Best wishes to you!

You basically screwed your brain up with the original opiates and it is now screaming at you for dopamine and other reward chemicals.  For awhile the ibogaine filled up the receptors and so took the place of these feel good chemicals-- but it wears off.  It takes up to 18 months for your brain to look and act normal again.  That's why you went back.  After that flood-- we are experimenting with microdosing the root bark on a daily basis.  I think if you did this for the 18 months it takes for your brain to heal, you could actually make it and it would be a piece of cake.  It's just a feel good chemical that your brain at this point could really use! 

I just don't think there is anything you need to "fix"-- your brain is changed and you need to work with that, understand it and do what you can to get back to that happy clean and sober glow.  Additionally, I wouldn't do any drugs-- not even blunts after your second flood.  You just may be a person who needs complete abstinence from any mind altering substance to stay happy.    Good luck...

So River, your saying that without knowing this person closely, you already don't think there is any issue's he might have that should be 'fixed', I'd rather say resolved or look into that may be contributing to his use?  And he should just take iboga everyday as a replacement daily drug for the next year and a half and that will solve his problems??  And that his problem is that he just screwed up his brain from opiates and that's the reason why he went back??

I'm just trying to fully understand that theory, because I always really liked Ibo for the idea of it's not a maintenance drug you have to keep taking over and over and over.  I understood that most of your dopamine is replenished after a couple weeks of the opiates releasing themselves from your receptors.  You can take it once, and a lot of people don't have to necessarily take it again.  A booster may be good and some people may need that for sure.  But a LOT of us screwed up our brains from feel good opiates over years and years (including me), does that mean we should all consider taking ibo for over a year to return to a normal state.  From my experience personally, I took insane amounts of opiates for over 5 years, flooded once, and granted it's only been almost 3 months as of now, I feel more normal and healthy than I ever have.  I know your probably right about it does take a long time for your brain to FULLY recover, but isn't there a high success rate without people having to take ibo for those 18 months?  How did those people do it?  I'm just saying I think a good mixture of looking into his situation/any possible issues, start working on that AND trying a booster (maybe possibly another flood in this case for Mr. Mushroom) is a good idea before completely surrendering yourself to be dependent daily or even weekly on another drug for so long even though it's not half as harmful as the opiates, it's still a drug, and that's still dependancy.  And maybe, just maybe, he happens to be a person that might need to be dependent on something, and ibo is the ladder, but shouldn't he try 'fixing' his own situation first..

Correct me if I'm wrong with anything there, not trying to go against the grain too much.  Sorry if it came across that way at all.  I like your posts River, this one I'm just trying to understand more where your coming from.
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Offline riverhaven

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Re: trials and tribs
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2010, 10:12:44 AM »
The problem is that because ibogaine is a no-no in so many places we can't get good studies on it.  So, we have no real idea of how many people can do one flood and be clean again forever.  In fact, I fervently believed the myth that one flood does it when I did mine-- only to be told by Sara that nope-- most people end up boostering again in 6 months and again after that.  Now that is just HER experience at HER rehab.  It would be nice to have it all put together with statistics from all the centers and all the underground experiences to see how long ibogaine does act, how many people only need it once.

I never meant to imply that aftercare- other than iboga isn't important.  Our whole lives have revolved around getting drugs and using them.  Most of us have forgotten how to live a normal life, how to have a hobby, interact with our family in a sober way etc...  We need help getting back to life for sure and ibogaine isn't going to do that.  What I was saying is it's no surprise when people relapse.  We know in medicine that brain injury patients, stroke patients-- anyone who damages their brain tissue can recover but full recovery takes up to 18 months.  That's a long time.  It's a good thing we can fix it-- but you have to be patient with yourself and your brain.  I had a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy along the years to help me deal with cravings and how to handle stresses in my life better-- and LOL without drugs!!
 I also don't think that ibogaine is a maintenance drug--- just a way to get you thru PAWS.  I was going to try microdosing for 6 months and see how I did