Author Topic: Dosing Protocols  (Read 7227 times)

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Offline Calaquendi

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Dosing Protocols
« on: January 18, 2010, 04:29:58 PM »
Greetings my friends, let's discuss different options and details concerning iboga/ibogaine dosing schedules. First off, I think, is the necessity to consider why a person is taking this medicine. Addiction interruption typically requires a higher dose than someone using this for psycho/spiritual needs. Plus, different drug addictions and varying use patterns require unique specifications when figuring out a dose.

To my knowledge the clinics favor a higher-end dosing protocol for opiate addiction, etc: this being from 20 -25mg/kg of ibogaine hcl.
To my mind, this is high, and the same results can be achieved with a lesser dose- not to mention any potential problems can be mitigated with a decrease in dose. This is the strongest medicine I have ever seen, and although it needs to be taken appropriately (this means a good flood) it can be done with care to maximize safety.

The total-alkaloid (TA) form of iboga has been steadily gaining in popularity. This is for good reason. Although containing only about 1/2 - 2/3's of ibogaine per weight vs hydrochloride, there are other alkaloids present which work in tandem with the ibogaine to achieve the desired results. It's also my opinion and the opinion of others I know who have taken both forms, that the TA is 'easier' or gentler by and large, than pure ibogaine. It also seems to facilitate the visionary responses more readily. I myself have used the TA for opiate addiction, and did so at a dose of 15mg/kg - and it worked perfectly...Though in retrospect I could have taken more. I believe that the dosing of 20mg/kg or higher is safer with the total alkaloid than with hcl. This seems to be a shared notion and is beginning to look like consensus. The efficacy of the TA is not in doubt. Perhaps I am biased, having a good deal of ill-will towards big pharma and all it's ideology - how can you 'clean up' or 'perfect' something that already is just fine in its natural state?

I do not mean to poo-poo ibogaine, it has saved many lives, and has it's uses certainly. But if someone were to come to me personally for advice, I would advise them to use what worked for me. Maybe incorporate a small dose of the hcl with the TA - but certainly having the full spectrum of chemicals present in the root bark is more 'holistic' and therefore preferred - at least by those I know who've used both.

These are only my opinions and experiences, and I am no expert by a long shot. There are other ways of dosing, spreading out the schedule over a few days instead of nailing someone with an epic flood: this type of administration seems to be used for those whose health may not be suitable for the all-at-once bombardment of a flood. And there are 'boosters' - doses taken post flood for various reasons. I'd like to open the floor as it were for your opinions and thoughts here. I know several of you guys are pretty experienced in administering these different protocols. Thanks and much love! ~Cal
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 10:44:00 PM by calaquendi »
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Offline sister

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Re: Dosing Protocols
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2010, 07:07:25 PM »
This seems reasonable.  Not that my first experience was bad... in fact the opposite.   I am looking for a safe way to keep the levels up in my system.  Like I said at least a yr.  My TX lasted for about three months before I started having a harder time.  I really don't want to have to do a flood dose every 4 months...  HOPEFULLY, since now I have my own HCL I will not have to go thru the expense of travel, clinics, waiting time,etc.  I can do a small booster like every 3 months.. I just don't know what a small dose is.  100mg, 200-300mg? As of right now I don't have TA but working on it.  For sure will not have it avail when I have my Treatment Feb, 1.
My plans to date for my TX in Feb will go as follows:
NPO after last 5mg oxycondone by 10pm except flds.

Tuesday morning after shower etc..

zofran on awakening, 200mg tester, All well then 300mg, 45min later another 300 with total of 800mg. Being ~ 13.5mg/kg.
I will take b12 shot one week prior,  increase vitc, magnesium, ... I have avail for me Melatonin, trazadone, a few Valium and ativan, Gaba.   Any other suggestion?


thanks,
Sister
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Offline Calaquendi

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Re: Dosing Protocols
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2010, 10:55:58 PM »
That sounds real good to me sister...not at all unlike the way my buddy was treated by a clinic, except the dose is lower. You do have a sitter I imagine?

I'm not too familiar with Zofran - have you used this concomitantly with ibogaine? How intense was the dose of 24mg/kg for you? I'd like to hear about that, seems a pretty mighty flood.

Want to wish you the best of luck and thank you for sharing!
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Offline sister

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Re: Dosing Protocols
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2010, 08:46:34 AM »
So you think 13mg/kg of wt is a large dose?  I thought this was a rather small dose... surely smaller then my first.

Zofran is a antimetic they use for chemo patients.  And no, I did not use it with my first TX.  I didn't get nauseate either.

Yes I do have a sitter who I trust.

My first tx.... well I felt it was pretty intense.  I chose to black out.  My ears were not accustom to Bwitti music and it really irritated me to no end.  The next day was very pleasant for me.. not dreaming per say, just at peace. 
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Offline Calaquendi

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Re: Dosing Protocols
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2010, 05:02:16 PM »
No, I think the dose sounds right-on, especially after you handled such a heavy dose before...

On the music, for me I preferred dark and silence - I was having auditory hallucinations out the wazoo and ended up hearing plenty of music and chanting that wasn't 'there' haha. So I can see where having external noise would be bothersome. It's all whatever suits the individual I reckon.

It sounds like you have a real good handle on stuff, and I wish you all the best!
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Offline Calaquendi

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Re: Dosing Protocols
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2010, 09:51:20 PM »
Here is a good link from The Ibogaine Dossier -{ it is a Power Point slide show, if you do not have Office you can download Open Office for free here:http://www.openoffice.org/}

The main link: http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/ibogaine_forms_dose_regimen.ppt
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Nganga Nobunoni

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Re: Dosing Protocols
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2010, 06:50:51 PM »
Greetings my friends, let's discuss different options and details concerning iboga/ibogaine dosing schedules. First off, I think, is the necessity to consider why a person is taking this medicine. Addiction interruption typically requires a higher dose than someone using this for psycho/spiritual needs. Plus, different drug addictions and varying use patterns require unique specifications when figuring out a dose.

To my knowledge the clinics favor a higher-end dosing protocol for opiate addiction, etc: this being from 20 -25mg/kg of ibogaine hcl.
To my mind, this is high, and the same results can be achieved with a lesser dose- not to mention any potential problems can be mitigated with a decrease in dose. This is the strongest medicine I have ever seen, and although it needs to be taken appropriately (this means a good flood) it can be done with care to maximize safety.

The total-alkaloid (TA) form of iboga has been steadily gaining in popularity. This is for good reason. Although containing only about 1/2 - 2/3's of ibogaine per weight vs hydrochloride, there are other alkaloids present which work in tandem with the ibogaine to achieve the desired results. It's also my opinion and the opinion of others I know who have taken both forms, that the TA is 'easier' or gentler by and large, than pure ibogaine. It also seems to facilitate the visionary responses more readily. I myself have used the TA for opiate addiction, and did so at a dose of 15mg/kg - and it worked perfectly...Though in retrospect I could have taken more. I believe that the dosing of 20mg/kg or higher is safer with the total alkaloid than with hcl. This seems to be a shared notion and is beginning to look like consensus. The efficacy of the TA is not in doubt. Perhaps I am biased, having a good deal of ill-will towards big pharma and all it's ideology - how can you 'clean up' or 'perfect' something that already is just fine in its natural state?

I do not mean to poo-poo ibogaine, it has saved many lives, and has it's uses certainly. But if someone were to come to me personally for advice, I would advise them to use what worked for me. Maybe incorporate a small dose of the hcl with the TA - but certainly having the full spectrum of chemicals present in the root bark is more 'holistic' and therefore preferred - at least by those I know who've used both.

These are only my opinions and experiences, and I am no expert by a long shot. There are other ways of dosing, spreading out the schedule over a few days instead of nailing someone with an epic flood: this type of administration seems to be used for those whose health may not be suitable for the all-at-once bombardment of a flood. And there are 'boosters' - doses taken post flood for various reasons. I'd like to open the floor as it were for your opinions and thoughts here. I know several of you guys are pretty experienced in administering these different protocols. Thanks and much love! ~Cal

Caution' doses of 25mg/kg can cause damage to the cerebelum and death to punjike cells'

21mg/kg would appear to be max dose' in one go'
Thern if you understand the metabolism process of Ibogaine you can low dose'

Bliss!

Nobu +

Offline Calaquendi

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Re: Dosing Protocols
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2010, 01:34:50 PM »
I have read differing accounts that ibogaine damages purkinje fibers...it seems there is still some debate whether or not this is accurate?

Nonetheless, I certainly would not administer, or suggest administering a dose over the 25mg/kg range for other reasons. It seems this medicine will do it's work in doses beneath that so why risk it anyway? Any more data appreciated!

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Offline GratefulDad

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Re: Dosing Protocols
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2010, 11:53:25 AM »
My understanding is that punjike cells were damaged in rats in high doses, not even sure if they did those tests on primates, and the study hasn't been duplicated, so that study may be inaccurate.  Never-the-less, no reason to push your luck or try and be the guinea pig up for testing, lol!
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Re: Dosing Protocols
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2010, 05:39:52 PM »
Just a little tit bit' us folks in the West chow down on quite a bit more woods than they would in traditional ceremonies' my Tata laughed his ass off as of when I told him of how much wood I ate' he said "Why? hehehe
My max dose was 54 grams' no a good idea' cos I was psychosed for 3 weeks' this was a massiver dose for my body weight' but it was consumed in 2 sittings' hence the Iboga alk flood of the cerebelum was limited to just under 21mg/kg' TA in one go'
I read a report of a primate given a massive dose' she died and the autopsy showed cell damage in the cerebelum and olive'
As little as 10 grams shall kill withdrawal' so there is no need to hit unreasonable limits'
Also too large a dose hinders recovery' cos folks are just flattened for 5-6 days' instead of just being "NUM" then after 5-6 days' taking off psychicaly'

Best results I have seen was with a double dose protocol' each full initiation 5 months apart' with low dose regime to tail off each initiation'
The first initiation wiped out the withdrawal syndrome and killed the cravings' the second initiation gave of hight to work it all out'

Bliss!

Nobu +

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: Dosing Protocols
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2010, 05:21:40 PM »
While use of a Total Alkaloid (TA) extract may be smoother and more 'interesting' from a psycho-spiritual point of view, there are several unknowns that could result in the ibonaut consuming too little or too much ibogaine.

Some of the unknowns:

  • Alkaloid content of the root bark (RB);
  • Quantities of alkaloids extracted from the RB;
  • Quantity of inactive substances extracted from the RB;
  • Are the alkaloids in freebase form or have they been converted to acid salts;
  • What, if any, steps have been taken to purify the original, crude extract;
  • What quantity of impurities (e.g. water, solvent, salts, acid) remain in the final product;
  • What percentage of ibogaine is in the final product?

First, the term 'Total Alkaloid' is most likely a misnomer.  Strictly speaking, 'total'  means 100%.  Since getting absolutely ALL of EACH alkaloid out would require a professional chemist and a laboratory, the best us non-professionals can be expected to come up with is a 'Mixed alkaloid eXtract' (MX) product that will vary somewhat, depending on the procedure, equipment and solvents used.

If the ibogaine content of the RB is known accurately and the extraction procedure is efficient (i.e. 90% of the alks are extracted), it is easy to determine doses.

For example, if you start out with 44 grams RB that is 5% ibogaine, and your extraction efficiency is 90%, your yield will be 1.98 grams.  (44 * .05 = 2.2;  .9 * 2.2 = 1.98)  Let's just call it 2 grams.

Whatever the total weight of the extract is, it will contain 2 grams of ibogaine.  So, if a 1g dose is desired, measure 1/2 of the total weight (or volume, if a tincture or other liquid is produced) and it will contain 1g of ibogaine.  If 9g of extract is obtained, then 4.5g will contain 1g of ibogaine.

This is fine, if the ibogaine content of the RB is accurately known.  I have seen reports of ibogaine content being from 4% to 6%.  Plus, if the extract is purchased, how is one to deal with possibly inaccurate information regarding the content?

Possibly, the best way to safely administer an MX is to go back to basics:  "How is it done in Africa?"  In the Bwiti initiation, the RB is given over a considerable period of time, with experienced members of the tribe watching over the initiate.  They will encourage the initiate to eat more, if appropriate.  They visually monitor the initiate's skin tone and psychological/physiological state.  They will touch the initiate to determine body temperature.  They will ask the initiate questions.  Of course, the ones doing the monitoring and feeding the Eboka to the initiate have gone through the initiation themselves and have possibly attended and helped in dozens.

Hence, it might be best to get the best estimate possible of the ibogaine content and prepare a cautious first dose, say 10 - 15 mg/kg.  Then prepare additional 'booster' doses (making sure to have enough in case estimates of purity are low) up to a limit determined by the health and objectives of the ibonaut, maybe 20 mg/kg (plus fudge factor).  The boosters could be spaced apart by an hour or two.  In this way, either the ibonaut or the sitter could halt the dosing.

The one problem:  puking.  I have noted that a calm, peaceful stomach can be goaded into action by just a sip of water.  In Africa, puking is ALWAYS part of the process.  Some of us Westerners have a real problem with making a big, technicolor yawn.

The above 'dosing schedule' is based only upon what I have read here and elsewhere and is, therefore, theoretical.  Your comments and thoughts are welcome.

Yer friend and future ibonaut,

McKnight

PS  --  Is Eboka anything like peyote?  With peyote, you eat a bunch and probably puke, at least the first few times, if you manage to eat enough in the first place.  If you are able to summon up the will and eat more after blowing chunks, that's when the real benefits kick in and nausea disappears.  ~eon
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 12:25:29 AM by Eon T McKnight »

Offline Calaquendi

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Re: Dosing Protocols
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2010, 10:38:22 PM »
Man I really like that post. Very succinct and comprehensive - one question here: when people (vendors) say bark is "4-6%" are they saying 4-6% ibogaine or 4-6% alkaloids?

I always assumed it was the full spectrum percentage? This may be misinterpreted - if so, there's a hell of a margin for error.

So- "5% bark"...if it's five percent ibogaine, that would mean what? It's ten percent total alkaloids? Because only about 1/2 to 2/3's of the alks in the RB is actually ibogaine, and the rest is other actives...if this number represents ibogaine only, wouldn't that leave out a whole slew of other stuff?  ???

I agree totally about modeling closely the way which it's done in Africa. At least for myself, this is how I took it and the same for my friends. A test dose (like in clinics) then a large flood dose spread over some hours...it lasts FOREVER this way, days on end still seeing visual distortion, but it seemed to really help somatic symptoms and alleviate the discomfort of nailing it all at once. My brother didn't even puke once, and he took TA from 30 grams of bark!

PS> eboka isn't like peyote or anything else for that matter. not everyone pukes but the majority will. I'd consider it a purge if it does happen and I imagine if one keeps it down long enough (however long that is?) it'll still do the trick...
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 11:06:23 PM by calaquendi »
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Nganga Nobunoni

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Re: Dosing Protocols
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2010, 09:54:14 AM »
TA = TA' = Extracted then refined to total alkaloid'
Analysis = 960mg of 12 indole alkaloids plus 40mg minor acid salts' = 1 gram' = 16 grams high quality Iboga rootbark'

Folks of whom make their own are making an extract of Iboga rootbark unless they refine the final product'

Bliss!

Nobu +

6% alkaloids = 4% Ibogaine and 2% other alkaloids in high quality woods'
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 10:38:40 AM by Nganga Nobunoni »

Offline Calaquendi

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Re: Dosing Protocols
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2010, 05:36:08 PM »
That's an interesting breakdown of the % Nobu...

I emailed a friend of mine who also happens to be an ethnobotanical vendor and asked him this question. Here's the transcrpit of our brief conversation:

Calaquendi: > Quick question about wood - hopefully you will be able to put this to rest for us: whenever wood is advertised as a certain % (for instance 4-6%) does that mean the total alk content, or is it the % of actual ibo in the wood? I always presumed it was the full spectrum represented by the % and based everything from there, but some people on the forum have raised this question and I figured I could get the correct information from you.
>

Dude:its the total alkaloids in %
So not only ibogaine but also the other alkaloids.
But I can ask the supplier if he can confirm this 100%

So this is pretty much how I though it was, but I am waiting for him to get back with me after he discusses this with his suppliers.
I have always done my calculations based on the idea that the % advertised for bark was all inclusive and not just a number for ibogaine. In fact, I think that it's pretty much 'universal' when talking about bark percentages that the full spectrum alkaloid mix is where the numbers are generated. This makes more sense to me. Even if someone knows precisely what the alk content is in any given batch of Wood, the ibogaine number can still vary within that, I have read accounts that put the % of ibogaine in bark anywhere from 1/2 to 80% of the total makeup of active constituents...another good reason to base doses on the percent of mixed alks and not the estimated amount of ibogaine. We who work with this medicine are charged with the responsibility of keeping it as safe as possible, and like it or not, people look to those with experience and base their decisions on that. It is very important therefore for we in this small community to keep analyzing and discussing these data and ideas so that a consensus can be established. Any time we work with plants and 'experimental' medicines there will be gray areas. I thank you all very much for your participation here - one day we might look back at this teeny tiny board from a much more evolved perspective and say, "Wow, I am proud to have been a part of this community from the beginning, and I had a part in helping it grow" This is my sincere hope. Love to each of you ~Cal
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Re: Dosing Protocols
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2010, 12:01:21 PM »
I have found that no two fields of trees are the same' each have their own characture in varied alkaloid content'
Research and sampling is the only way to tell'

Bliss!

Nobu +