Author Topic: Total-Alkaloid Extract of T.iboga - (Now w/pics)  (Read 27894 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Eon T McKnight

  • Banzi
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 796
    • View Profile
Re: Total-Alkaloid Extract of T.iboga
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2009, 11:22:35 PM »
Dearest Tia,

Ever made pickles?  Vinegar inhibits the growth of micro-organisims, but only when sufficiently strong/concentrated.  Even then, it is recommended to boil (or at least par-boil) the items to be pickled unless you are going for refrigerator pickles.

Chemists and cooks share many things.

ETOH also inhibits such growth, without boiling, when at about 15% or better.  IPOH works great, too, and is not much more toxic than ETOH (per conversation w/ toxicologist) with less likelyhood of disappearing down the chef's throat.

Until someone, somewhere can tell me the pH of an aqueous root bark solution, there is not a whole lot more dependable info I can add...

Yer Pal,

Chef Eon

Offline x

  • Donating Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
Re: Total-Alkaloid Extract of T.iboga
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2009, 11:48:03 AM »
Thanks for that, Eon. I will now go look up 'IPOH'. That's one I'm not familiar with.


I recently spoke with someone who doesn't heat the RB/vinegar solution at all, but just gives a good hour soak four times with fresh vinegar, then adds heat only to reduce the volume of vinegar before basifying with non sudsing janitorial grade ammonia. Sounds simple and effective. Go kitchen witches!

Tia

Offline Eon T McKnight

  • Banzi
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 796
    • View Profile
Re: Total-Alkaloid Extract of T.iboga
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2009, 04:01:47 PM »
My apologies.  IPOH  ==  IsoPropyl alcohol  ==   Isopropanol  ==  rubbing alcohol.  It can be purchased as 91% at Walmart and Walgreen, the two Wallies.  It's effective, cheap and can be made anhydrous simply by adding non-iodized table salt.

Why did your acquaintance basify the solution???  Acid salts are more easily absorbed in the gut.  Freebase alkaloids take longer to dissolve and be absorbed and, to me, are more often associated with nausea.  Also, acid salts are less likely to be affected by the changeable environment of the gut, and hence they are more predictable.

The common (at least among us uncommon types) reason to basify an alkaloid is to separate it by dissolving in an non polar solvent or for smoking purposes (c.f. crak).

IF (that's a BIG IF) the root bark alkaloids are naturally acid salts, no vinegar or any other acid would be required to extract the alkaloids.  Nor would ammonia be necessary.  Just water.  Or water + alcohol for easier filtering and evaporation.

IF (another BIG IF) the alkaloids are naturally in their freebase state, they could be very easily extracted with dry IPOH and then turned into acid salts with vinegar.  You would then have ibogaine acetate (similar to ibogaine HCl).

Can you acquaintance tell us what the pH of an aqueous root bark solution is?

~eonisphere
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 10:09:18 PM by Eon T McKnight »

Offline x

  • Donating Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
Re: Total-Alkaloid Extract of T.iboga
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2009, 06:59:16 PM »
An aqueous solution, I have no idea. I don't know that the active bits of the RB are even water soluble.

Basify to create a TA that lasts many many months, very stable. This is what I have heard.

Please google the teks of Chris Jenks. They are elaborate, and for me, require a dictionary for some parts (and that's actually sayin' sumthin'). You may have your answers there, written by one with far more tekkie knowledge than this girl!
If you do read theses teks, and are feeling magnanimous, I'd love a translation!!!

Good to 'see' you back, Eon.

Offline Eon T McKnight

  • Banzi
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 796
    • View Profile
Re: Total-Alkaloid Extract of T.iboga
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2009, 10:02:37 PM »
I had never really left, just couldn't reach the keyboard from 100 miles away.  I was still here in spirit, though...

While most of the root bark will not dissolve, enough ions (not eons) will be in solution to get an initial pH measurement.  Even elemental lead can be dissolved  --  very very slightly  -- in water.

While some freebase alkaloids are very stable, the acid salts are, without any exception known to myself, more stable.  They are more resistant to change over time, to other chemicals and to heat.  Since acid salts are often hydrophilic (water loving) and hygroscopic (water attracting, absorbing (sukkin'?)) and freebases are usually hydrophobic (don't mix w/ water, not rabid  ;D ) unprotected/unshielded acid salt alkaloids will often absorb water, sometimes to the point of becoming gooey.  The freebases will not be similarly affected by humidity.

So, in some conditions, a freebase will be more desirable (e.g. your backpack in the middle of the rainforest).  All the scientists/doctors will use the HCl because it is easier to purify and in protected lab-type environments, more stable than the freebase.

To prove this to yourself, take one gram cocaine HCl and one gram freebase cocaine (crak).  Expose both on a plate and take into the bathroom.  Take a very long very hot shower with the door closed.  Observe.  The coke HCl will be a clump of goo while the crak is still solid.  If the crak has disappeared, repeat experiment, but this time, do NOT take a crak pipe into the bathroom.   ;)

Practically speaking, if sealed properly  --  airtight, no light, no moisture  --  and put into a freezer, both freebase and acid salt alkaloids will usually last for years.  That is (ahem) if they don't 'evaporate' first, as I have often observed.  I kept some harmaline freebase in the freezer for 10 years without apparent loss of potency.

Will google "chris jenks" and ibogaine.  Thanks for the lead!

Yer benighted pal,

eon

Offline Eon T McKnight

  • Banzi
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 796
    • View Profile
Re: Total-Alkaloid Extract of T.iboga
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2009, 10:03:47 PM »
After considerable searching on the web, it does not appear that T. iboga contains tyramine.  So my warning re: MAOIs and Eboka TA were probably unnecessary.  However, I am in the process of formulating a list of all known T. iboga compounds which I will both google and send to a pharmacologist with considerable experience in toxicology and chemistry before proclaiming that combination possibly safe.  I would feel very very badly indeed were someone to try mixing an MAOI w/ TA or ibogaine with bad results based upon something I ignorantly and carelessly said.  What I said was 'brainstorming' and NOT a recommendation!

Based upon the review of a number of articles on the web, it certainly appears that ibogaine exists in its freebase form in the natural, untreated root bark  --  though I have not seen a statement precisely to that effect.  That conclusion is drawn based upon the use of non-polar solvents in the first step of several extraction teks or the addition of acid where water is used as a solvent.

Hence, ethanol (ETOH), isopropanol (IPOH), acetone or petroleum ether (naphtha) should be suitable for the first step in the process without adding any acid or base.  The benefit in using such solvents is ease of filtration and evaporation.

More to come, in a while...

Following are three links to Eboka chemistry.  The first is a bibliography provided by Dr. C.W. Jenks.  The second two are links to his work.  Profound thanks to Dr. Jenks!

     http://www.puzzlepiece.org/ibogaine/literature/iborefs.html
     http://puzzlepiece.org/ibogaine/literature/jenks2002.pdf
     http://puzzlepiece.org/ibogaine/literature/ibogaine_extraction_manual.pdf

Guerrilla NeuroPharmacology!         ~ET
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 10:06:24 PM by Eon T McKnight »

Offline Calaquendi

  • cosmic elf
  • Donating Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1600
    • View Profile
Re: Total-Alkaloid Extract of T.iboga - (Now w/pics)
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2010, 02:55:25 AM »
Bump - pics at last  ;)
" I am you and what I see is me..."

Offline achtwan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
    • View Profile
Re: Total-Alkaloid Extract of T.iboga - (Now w/pics)
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2010, 02:49:42 PM »
phew...just my gut talkin,but i have an intuition that iboga and mao would be a potentialy fatal combo.
a very complex molecule by itself.
i know i would not have the balls to consider that one,
but it would be good to have some empirical data on the subject.
i should burn one and have a looksy around...
raise your fears and cast them all away...

Offline GratefulDad

  • Dead Head
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1364
  • Uncle Sam wants you to be a Shaman!!
    • View Profile
Re: Total-Alkaloid Extract of T.iboga - (Now w/pics)
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2010, 06:48:34 AM »
The Extraction:

What you need: Plain white distilled vinegar, a stainless steel, ceramic, HDPE, or non-reactive container, janitorial strength (10%) non-sudsy ammonia, distilled water, a funnel, coffee filters, old t-shirt, and the iboga bark.

Optional for added purity: Acetone, muriatic acid (28-31% HCl), and Everclear  (95% pure ethanol).

1: Take the bark, and make sure it's as fine of a powder as possible.

2: Add enough vinegar to thoroughly cover the bark. A good measurement for the vinegar is about 5 times the amount (volume) of vinegar to the weight of bark.

In this instance 40g of bark times 5 would be about 200 mls of vinegar per soak. One may need slightly more in the first couple extractions to thoroughly cover the bark, and excess can be used safely, however it will lengthen the time of filtering later, so try and keep the volumes minimal.

3: The bark can be stirred occasionally, and left to sit for at least one hour.

Adding heat makes the bark harder to filter, and isn't necessary.

4: After an hour has passed, one needs to filter the bark from the vinegar with a cloth t-shirt. Squeeze out the bark to gather all the vinegar and save this. The bark is then returned to the container for another soak. This should be done 4 times to be sure to get out all the alkaloids.

5: While letting the bark soak again, as in the previous steps, Filter the collected vinegar through coffee filters.

This can take a long time to filter, since the coffee filters clog easily, and may need to be replaced often. Have patience though. If you can leave it sitting in the funnel, with a filter, the juice will eventually pass through. This filtering isn't 100% necessary but it will remove all the fine plant particles from the solution, so the initial extraction will come out much cleaner, so it's a good idea.

6: Once all the vinegar has been collected and filtered through a coffee filter, you have two options.

The first would be to evaporate the vinegar a bit, by using low heat and a fan. Under boiling is fine to reduce the vinegar, and will make it easier to deal with less liquid. You don't want to evaporate it to thickness though, just enough to make it easy to work with in a smaller container. The second option is to skip the evaporation and proceed directly to the next step.

7: Once you have all your vinegar collected, and evaporated a good bit, if you like, you are ready to add the ammonia. You can slowly pour ammonia into the vinegar, to make it basic. pH  papers aren't needed, but if used, just make sure the pH  is above 9-10.

As you add the ammonia, the solution will heat slightly, and you will see cloudy precipitate forming. You can add more ammonia, to be sure, as too much won't hurt, it will just add to the amount of solution that needs to be filtered, which can take awhile.

8: Now, if left to settle, the precipitate (freebase total alkaloids) will sink to the bottom of the container. The majority of the clear solution at the top can be siphoned off, and filtered to be sure no precipitate is in it.

If it looks clear, not cloudy, though, all the precipitate should have sunken to the bottom. By removing a large portion of the upper clear (tea color) water, this will allow you to have much less solution to filter out your alkaloids. You can save everything you siphoned off and add more ammonia later, to be sure you got out all the freebase alkaloids.

9: Now you can filter the muddy solution through coffee filters again.

Filtering this can take a good bit as the precipitate begins to clog the filter, but again, be patient, as the solution will eventually pass through the filter completely. This may take overnight, so don't worry if it takes a long time. Once you have filtered the solution, you can set aside the clear tea colored water for later, to add more ammonia, and be sure you collected all the precipitate.

10: You should now have a coffee filter with all the brown freebase precipitate stuck to it. You should then add a liberal amount of distilled water to the filter in the funnel. You will thoroughly rinse the precipitate with the distilled water to wash away any extra impurities.

Again, waiting for the water to pass through the alkaloid coated coffee filter may take awhile, so just have patience.

11: This precipitate can then be placed in front of a fan with a warm air current, away from UV light, and left to dry.

This is now your crude freebase total alkaloid extract. This can be capped when dry and used as is, and should be much cleaner than the simple vinegar extraction. However, for those of us that want it much more pure, there are two options.

First option:

1: Take the filter with the dried crusty precipitate and break up the filtrate to a fine powder. You can use the same filter, or take a new one and place it in a funnel that is plugged (SWIM  uses a two liter bottle with the bottom cut off for a funnel, so capping the opening can seal it, but a finger may be used). Add the filtrate to the plugged funnel then add vinegar.

2: Let the vinegar sit, maybe stir it around a bit in the filter, then let it drain through, and save the vinegar.

3: You can repeat with fresh vinegar another time, and collect all the vinegar.

4: Add ammonia to the vinegar again, to precipitate the alkaloids, which should be even cleaner this time.

5: Re-filter out all the alkaloids, and rinse with plain cold distilled water, then allow to dry completely in front of a fan.

This can now be used as is and should be even cleaner.


Second (more involved) option:

Okay so you have your brown precipitate in your coffee filter, now dried up, from the first portion of the extraction.

1: You now, take your acetone, and soak the filter with it. You can stir around the precipitate in the filter, and wash two or three times with acetone. The filter should contain any bark crud that got through, and any other impurities.

This will remove the alkaloids from the solid filtrate, since the freebase is soluble in acetone.

2: Take your muriatic acid, and add it very slowly, to the acetone. You must do this dropwise, and watch as the precipitate forms.

Adding too much can start to redissolve the ibogaine. You can add a few drops at a time, and watch as the precipitate forms. When it stops forming, you can place this into the fridge, to chill for a few hours, before filtering, and this will increase the yield. You can add more acid a second time to the acetone after filtering the first precipitate to be sure you got it all.

3: Filter out the ibogaine HCl.

This is nearly pure ibogaine HCl, but there may be a bit left in the acetone, and all the other alkaloids will also be in the acetone. You can evaporate some of the acetone with a fan and low heat, then treat it with the muriatic acid again, and harvest any more crystals of ibogaine HCl that precipitate. Filter it out as well and add it to the first filtrate.

4: If you would like pure ibogaine HCl, without the other alkaloids, you can take the ibogaine HCl crystals, and dissolve it in boiling ethanol.

The boiling ethanol should be added dropwise, just until all the ibogaine HCl has dissolved.

5: This ethanol solution is then left to cool in the fridge and the ibogaine will recrystallize.

This will make the ibogaine HCl form much more pure crystals and can remove some of the ibogamine/ibogaline if still present in the precipitate. It is not necessary unless going for 98%+ purity, and repeated recrystallizations can yield very pure ibogaine HCl, but can cost a bit of yield.

When this is dry, it is ready to take.

6: For those who want to recover all the alkaloids, so they can take a complete total alkaloid extract of high purity, they should take the acetone that they salted out the ibogaine HCl, and evaporate it in front of a fan with warm air current.

The resulting leftover alkaloids will be an unstable oil.

7: Dissolve this oil in distilled water.

8: Add ammonia to this water with the oil dissolved into it.

You will again see the freebase residual alkaloids precipitate out of the water/ammonia solution.

9: Filter out the freebase alkaloids, and rinse again thoroughly with distilled water.

10: Let the freebase residual alkaloids dry completely.

You can then add your freebase residual alkaloids to your ibogaine HCl, and capsulize it. Freebases will be converted to the HCl salts in your stomach, so turning them into the HCl salt before ingesting is unnecessary.


So there you have it folks. If you want a very pure extract in which you only need to take a gram or two of extract, versus 7-8 g of brown gunk, then this is how to do it! The purity should help eliminate some of the nausea and should also be absorbed very quickly by the system.


EDIT:  If anyone has an excess of bark and a good camera, I could perform this extraction again, photographing each step.  I am one to prefer all the alkaloids in the TA, however, purifying all the alkaloids to utmost purity before taking them, would be highly desired, as the plant material makes it much harder to be sure exactly what the dose one takes is.  Removing the other alkaloids and making pure ibogaine HCl is possible using this tek, but also seems to be wasteful of all the other synergistic alkaloids that help present the plant in it's full "spirit" form, I believe.  This is only my esoteric opinion, though, and I have no scientific proof that the added alkaloids give more of the "plant spirit", when looking from a purely scientific standpoint.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 10:27:58 AM by GratefulDad »
GratefulDad

"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason."

Nganga Nobunoni

  • Guest
Re: Total-Alkaloid Extract of T.iboga - (Now w/pics)
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2010, 08:48:51 AM »
No matter of how pure your extract is it shall no prevent nausia'

The nausia is caused by seretonin flooding the motion centres of your back brain'

It is a psychological things and has no thing to do with your stomach per se'

It is the brains way of saying' "I have had enough of this"

Still awaiting your report at kicking the bitch' you done lots of extraction work but no work on yourself!!

All the Best'

Nobu +

Offline GratefulDad

  • Dead Head
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1364
  • Uncle Sam wants you to be a Shaman!!
    • View Profile
Re: Total-Alkaloid Extract of T.iboga - (Now w/pics)
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2010, 10:39:18 AM »
Haha! Thanks Nobunoni, but when you say I have done no work on myself, I would beg to differ. ;)  Even the low dose of iboga I had taken has indeed helped me work on myself more than just battling my opiate addiction.  It has shown me a lot more than I had wished to use it for, even though only got so much on board. 

Instead of taking the occasional boost during my maintenance (opiate maintenance), on "rough" days, I have instead reduced my dose of 20g of pod powder a day, down to my last day, two days ago, of only 8.4 g.  On top of that I have switched to an even shorter acting, easier to measure dose of morphine sulfate.  And rather than the 10% morphine alkaloid profile of the pods, or roughly 80 mgs of morphine, plus codeine and other poppy alkaloids (of unknown %'s), I have narrowed it down to 45-60 mgs of morphine sulfate only, per day.  I am currently reducing that morphine dose daily, and am trying to get down to 15, maybe 30 mgs of morphine per day, then will undergo a treatment again. 

My sitter has started back to work, and caring for a family of five has taken priority to my detox, as I need to be sure they are all cared for before I take another 3 day journey.  But in the meantime, my mind is preparing, my body is preparing, and I am already beginning to develop a better routine and better outlook for a clean healthy life.  Thanks, though, Nobunoni, and Calaquendi, and all the rest of you who are watching and caring about my well being.  I love you all and bless you all!!

Respectfully,

GD
GratefulDad

"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason."

Nganga Nobunoni

  • Guest
Re: Total-Alkaloid Extract of T.iboga - (Now w/pics)
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2010, 11:50:49 AM »
Respectfuly bro!

It no matter if you are using 10mg morphine or 700-3000mg a day' Iboga alks shall wipe it out!

All the Best'

Bliss!

Nobu +

Offline Eon T McKnight

  • Banzi
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 796
    • View Profile
Re: Total-Alkaloid Extract of T.iboga - (Now w/pics)
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2010, 10:17:33 PM »
Dear GratefulDad,

Fist, allow me to give a belated "Welcome!" to the Forum.  Other issues have prevented me from spending much time here recently.  Your extraction teks are totalamente fantastico!

To Mr. Dad and you other Ibonauts:

I am seeking criticism on the following extraction tek.  (This is my first time, please be gentle.) (If you can't be gentle, please try to keep the bruises to where they won't show.)   ;)

(1)
Finely powder 40g root bark (RB) and put in 1L beaker.  Prepare 500ml solution of HCl w/ pH = 4.

(2)
Add 200ml of HCl solution to RB and agitate several times over 8 hours minimum.

(3)
Measure pH.

If pH >= 5, add 50ml HCl solution.  Agitate periodically for 1 hour minimum.  Check pH.  If pH >= 5, repeat.

else

If pH <5, add volume of 95% ethanol (EtOH) equal to 30% of liquid added previously.  Agitate.  Let stand until RB settles and solution above is clear.

(4)  Decant through a filter, leaving most of RB in beaker.  Add 2:1 solution of H2O and EtOH equal to what was decanted.  Agitate periodically for at least 1 hour.  Let stand until RB settles.

Repeat this step at least once (depends on compactness of RB layer).

(5)
Decant and filter, allowing most solvent to drain from RB.  Combine liquid.  Filter once more, if necessary.  Prepare steam bath (crock pot) w/ Pyrex pie plate above and fan.  Strip off liquid and collect TA residue.  Done.

Why add the EtOH?

~~  It makes the solution easier to decant and faster filtering.
~~  The solution will strip faster at a lower temperature.
~~  The 2:1 ratio is still a good solvent for the HCls.

Why HCl instead of vinegar?

~~  Better pharmacodynamics.

One concern that I have is that the weak HCl solution will not be sufficient to solubilize the alks and create hydrochlorides.  On the other hand, I want to keep the pH as close to 7 as possible to improve the final product.  Other experience has led me to shoot for a pH ~ 4 in general  --  not hygroscopic, easy on sensitive tissues, low enough to get all the alks.

Sincere THANKS for you help!    ~eon

PS  --  Does anyone know if I can charcoal the H2O/EtOH mix before stripping?  ~e
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 10:47:49 PM by Eon T McKnight »

Offline harveyplex

  • a bizzy buzzing bee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 511
    • View Profile
Re: Total-Alkaloid Extract of T.iboga - (Now w/pics)
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2010, 12:18:26 AM »
huh ?

Nganga Nobunoni

  • Guest
Re: Total-Alkaloid Extract of T.iboga - (Now w/pics)
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2010, 09:41:07 PM »
huh? hehehe

Keep Things Simple.:)

Bliss!

Nobu +